Do You Want “In God We Trust” Deleted From Our Currency??
2009 January 5
201 Responses
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no, keep it please.
Well we have Charles Darwin on our £10 banknote (UK) and he is the person who voided god as the creator of humans and life as it was a natural procession.
So “In god we trust” means nothing actually, it should be In Charles we trust.
You should know that by now!!!
I couldn’t care less what’s printed on it, I want it abolished and replaced with gold or silver.
Remove it. It has no business being there in the first place.
How can you say it has no business there? Our country was founded on that phrase. Our country was raised up because of the desire to worship God freely. Lets just abandon everything from our past and get rid of it, lets let the government have rule over us too – that is whats happening, Go America! I mean we had a good 200 or so year run, lets get God outa here, and give the gov. all the power, and we’ll be GRREATTT! yeah, you guys have been trying for a few years now and its definitely helping, America is at a better place now than ever in our past. Low violence, Happiness is everywhere, people walk the streets with trust and joy- heck we can leave our doors unlocked. Yeah, who needs God? Lets make our own morals and have some fun!
yeah, that’s working…..
We need God more than ever.
Where is “In God We Trust” in the US Constitution? The Declaration of Independence? Articles of Confederation?
Also, you don’t need a god to be a moral person. And I suppose that countries with a higher percentage of atheists are morally deficient??
God didn’t write the Constitution. God didn’t write the Bible either.
Morals are based on human perception and laws should be written based on that perception.
Again the atheist reddit community skews the results.
What, you’re saying an online poll on “proudatheists.wordpress.com” isn’t entirely scientific and accurate? Gasp!
Having “God” in the motto (and the pledge) help to reduce the deleterious effects of too much democracy. Without these reminders, people would get the idea, as has happened in Europe, that government officials can be judged by human moral standards, rather than as the instruments of God that our theocratic rulers believe they are. Or so says Assoc. Justice Antonin Scalia of SCOTUS. (Google: “Scalia god’s justice and ours”)
Who want’s currency? Money and religion are the root of all evil (not women, women are wonderful).
Zeitgeist Addendum and Jacque Fresco can explain this more clearly.
In God I don’t trust.
How can one trust an invisible being?
i dont care, at least not enough to fuss about it. what i care about is my god damn social security. you all DO know that changing the currency will cost more money that we dont have?
It doesn’t really affect my life.
However -
Not everyone is religious.
How would people feel if money read “Religion Is A Lie?”
That wouldn’t be fair at all.
Think about it.
@ self..
That was among the best, most basic response I’ve ever heard!
Although I am not religious. I think it is a very funny question to be on a website called “proudatheists”. I really don’t think a poll was needed at all, to get the majority result this website wanted. I knew the answer already, before I ever even clicked on the poll results. Too Silly.
it should be changed _back_ to “e. pluribus unum”
Since there is no evidence god ( which god anyway? ) exists, placing “IN GOD WE TRUST” on the currency is simply meaningless.
“In God We Trust” is not the issue at all. The so-called Fed can and should be able to put anything they wish on their currency. The real issues are the tyrannical so-called “legal tender” laws. No people should allow some supposed “government” to take the right of creating money away from them. Money manufacture and issuance should and must be a free market enterprise – just like the manufacture of shoes. We don’t look to government to monopolize the shoe industry. We also need a free market in money production. Let the market decide if the Fed’s so-called “money” has any real value. As long as you accept that government has the right monopolize anything (money, law, defense, infrastructure, etc), you have absolutely no right to complain about the results.
You may think you are a proud atheist, but If you believe in the legitimacy of the state, you’re still religious. You are a religiously brainwashed state worshiper. A state-worshiping atheist is a poser. Worship nothing or shut up about being an atheist.
(and to Elijah, “the LOVE of money is the root of all evil”. Look it up.)
Yes. Please.
Here’s my answer:
http://i11.tinypic.com/8fe4v0m.jpg
Yeah this was kind of a pointless poll, plus I’m against anything that brings out the internet wacko Paultards.
But for the record I would be happy to see it gone.
Realistically, if one is truly atheistic in their views, it shouldn’t matter what is on the money. Discussing something that doesn’t exist should not be worth the energy put into the discussion.
A true atheist should not be goaded into a circular conversation.
It doesn’t matter. Rinse. Repeat. Wipe hands on pants.
I have always wondered why only 1/2 the slogan is printed…
In God We Trust…
All Others Cash
tell you what, for those who dont want God on any dollar bill or any mention of Him anywhere say this:
God even if you are true I dont want nothing to do with you. I hand over all the blessings that were planned to me to my Christian fellow man. I undersand that its man who is doing the evil on earth so I dont balme You for the headline news.
BTW to truly believe that there is no God would require that person to be insane. Let me explain.
The only option they give besides a Creator is the Big Bang. Now rewind the Big Bang in your mind…the collision of matter floating around space …rewind some more…where did those particles come from?…where did space come from….rewind more and you get nothing. Not even space, not even darkness or light. Nothing. Nothing creates nothing. To believe that nothing created all we know to be is to
abuse logic and achieve the status of insane.
you go dude! i’m glad i’m not insane
In the flying spaghetti monster we trust
How about getting rid of Nuvus Ordo Seclorum (New World Order) off the back, and abolishing the Federal Reserve, which is a bunch of foreign bankers who stole all our money.
Considering many Americans, it should probably be changed to a warning label such as “Not for internal use”.
I’m no atheist (catholic actually) but honestly – “separate church and state” is the principle the country was founded on, not some christian camp vision of one country under a particular god.
When we let someone’s sense of righteousness rule the land, ignoring actual constitutional rights for all, then something is considerably wrong.
Remove it, and let a persons belief reside in ones heart, instead of shoving down another’s throat.
and replace it with “In the Government we Trust”, bc it seems that way.
Perhaps it could be replaced by random “clever” witticisms ala Taco Bell Sauce packets.
Quote:
Again the atheist reddit community skews the results.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
self:
I’ve thought about it and have come to the conclusion that putting “Religion Is A Lie” wouldn’t be that great of a slogan to put on money. However, I take objection to the fact that saying that could be construed as “disrepectful,” and that we shouldn’t make people who believe in fairy tales feel bad about themselves, because, well, it’s been a family tradition for so long.
I think everyone should be allowed to say what they think (within reason), including pointing out that beliefs, whether or not they are “sacred,” are lies. Especially when these beliefs aren’t based on any real evidence and detract from the principle I hold so valuable: freedom. I don’t need people who believe in something “on faith” (which essentially means: without evidence) to impose any sort of rules on my life.
I consider putting “Religion Is A Lie” on money equally as bad as “In God We Trust.” Actually, it’s better. “In God We Trust” is worse becasue rather than saying: “In Religion We Trust” we instead assume instead there is only 1 god and that he is trustworthy, which is in stark contrast with several other religions.
It’s time that people stop being afraid to offend people that believe in something “on faith.” These people deserve to be mocked. I afford very little respect to people that claim there are flying monsters with 35 eyeballs. I pity them. Especially if some group of people, throughout the persons life, told them it is fact throughout their life.
Anyway, peace.
come to think of it, the exact sayings from those packets would be nice. How i’d love to spend a fiver emblazoned with phrases like:
“My other taco is a Chalupa.”
or
“At night the sporks pick on me.”
Haha, I voted and I’m not American. Oh wait, the whole world is America, isn’t it?
Religion is not factual. There has been lots of pain an suffering from its result. Also, SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE!!! Its there for a reason! The fourfathers hated the idea of churches!!! Research it!
I’M SORRY TO SAY THAT YOU DON’T KNOW MUCH ABOUT OUR HISTORY AS A CHRISTIAN NATION. fIFTY TWO OF THE FIFTY FIVE SIGNERS Of the Declaration of Independance were orthodox,comitted Christians.
This same Congress formed the American Bible Society. They voted to purchase and import 20,000 copies of scripture for the people of this nation…Before you write something so blattenly in error, look up on the net’ The truth about our signers of The Declaration of Independance. Our Governmen has deleted much of the original document to shut the door on the beliefs of those who signed it. Fortunately, it is still available to read the truth for ourselves. The Government today would have us to believe that the reason was basically financially related, while in fact our fore fathers wanted freedom to believe in God and to have freedom to serve him, as well as a mariad of other reasons.
As far as God’s existance, I will fervently continue to believe in Him and know him as my Heavenly Father, and when I die, if I am wrong what have I lost??? When you breath your last breath, and pass on into Eternity, what will you have lost, and what hope will your loved one’s ever have of seeing you again?
In Britain we got Charles Darwin on our £10 note:
http://www.askcab.co.uk/money_site/mtenner.asp
Of course I want it deleted! We don’t have “In fairies we trust,” and we don’t need this bit of superstitious nonsense either.
hahaha.. very funny. then, change it to be: “in atheist we trust” (and would the world suddenly be peaceful??? CRAP!)
The almighty dollar is my god. It has fallen, but it will rise again. In it, I trust.
get over yourselves – wtf does it matter what it says and who are you anyway to decide?
Seeing that American Money is controlled by a private organization and not a federal one (Federal Reserve is a private corporation.) They can pretty much print on it anything they want. I vote we ask for an AHFSM (All Hail Flying Spaghetti Monster) on the next issuance of currency. They should have annual markings on currency change every year to mix it up a little bit… you know real Santa Dollars or Micky Bucks!
Read the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America. Part of it concerns religion. What is promises is freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. Like it or not, this nation was founded by people who were for the most part brought up within a community that considered belief in a supreme being a central part of life. While faith is believing in something without proof, absence of proof is not proof of absence.
If you’re right, then why doesn’t it say “In GodS We Trust”…so it may include the polytheistic folks.
People like you want a THEOCRACY.
Absolutely not! Why should it be removed? Its sad that the idiots of today keep wanting to get rid of anything God. God RULES!
No…money rules…otherwise religion would not be as popular.
there is absolutely no truth in that, Religion existed before money…. shows how much you know
Given that the majority of Americans believe in God, I would say that it is appropriate that the saying remains. If the atheist community becomes a more mainstream movement, then maybe.
This is about the “separation of church/state”…not about who is a majority.
The majority of the US is caucasian. Should we allow only caucasians to vote?
How many other countries have “God” on their currency?? Very few.
Our country was founded on that phrase … unlike many other countries. People came to America to practice Religion. Thats how America started. If you don’t agree then LEAVE
Another young know-it-all Christian Nazi that doesn’t have her facts straight.
“In God We Trust” was first put on coins in 1864. Later it was placed on paper money 1954.
Our country was not founded on that phrase. Look on the US Constitution.
Before you claim how someone is wrong, maybe you should know facts yourself.
BTW…maybe you should leave.
No.
Our economy is bad enough as it is. We don’t need to be wasting money on something so insignificant.
As long as nobody cares there is no harm. Think economically and rationally, not emotionally. Use that Atheist logic!
I really don’t give a damn. I’m an atheist, and as long as the gov isn’t saying “YOU MUST BELIEVE IN GOD’, I’m fine with most of what they do. Most != all.
I’d rather see that energy put to work fighting the various encroachments of theocratic thinking into our nation’s laws.
Honestly, as long as it says Legal Tender I don’t care what else is on it.
Who cares if it’s on there? Yea it’s a little in your face, but that’s partly what this country was founded on.
I’m Christian anyways :p
I don’t like having “In God We Trust” and everything that goes with it, but I think removing it would cause more turmoil and hatred from conservatives. It’s bad enough I say leave it and ignore it.
I want it left there because well God’s been taken out of every other place in public..
Think about it..
The 10 Commandments displayed in a court…and why shouldn’t they be? If you break one of those Commandments..usually that’s why you are there in court.
niliad was right
“Realistically, if one is truly atheistic in their views, it shouldn’t matter what is on the money. Discussing something that doesn’t exist should not be worth the energy put into the discussion.”
Hmm . . . that poll is probably a bit biased, eh?
I’m a Canadian . . . all I can say is, it’s a good idea, but — good luck.
KEEP IT!
I’d rather put my energy into getting rid of the penny.
Delete it for what? The vocal minority? The special interest? Leave it be. If you don’t believe in God, then what is the big deal? If God does not exist, then why does it bother you so when you see phrases such as “In God We Trust” ?
Why does it matter? I don’t understand why people get all upset about it.
I believe in God, I have read the Bible, new and old, the Qur’an, the Hebrew Bible, and many eastern spiritual books… However, I have also read the Constitution. I understand that most of the founding ‘fathers’ of this nation where, for the most part, Christians. But they also understood that the church, witch ran their lives across the Atlantic, and anything like it, would corrupt the freedom of an entire land. While people who make laws based on morality are acceptable, those whom dare force a religion upon us are forever WRONG. This was not on the original currency, and appeared in 1864, while the motto was accepted in 1956. This would have never happened under the original concepts of the founding fathers.
If it truly means nothing, as has been argued, it has no business being there, and no one should object to its removal. If it does have meaning (and the large number objecting suggests it does), then it is truly a religious statement, and must not be included on our legal tender.
Maybe I am a simpleton but my understanding of the ’separation of the church and state’ was a simple delineation that the government could not impose a state run religion (like the English did with Catholicism) but instead allowed for all people to practice their faith in their God or gods as they so chose. That did not remove from those founding fathers the belief that they held that there was a creator who gave us inalienable rights.
I am also under the naive notion that the government in America is a government of the people – meaning, we are the government OR are self governing. That being the case, the majority decides for the whole certain guidelines\restrictions\laws or whatever you want to call them that must be followed. There are protective clauses in the amendments that can override the majority voice – like the freedom of speech.
I mention this because if we are a self-governing people where a majority hold to some view of a supernatural creator, why would you not expect forms of the majority’s religious expression to show up in the principle’s of society? (the monetary system being one of those principle agents).
By the way, in my opinion, Atheism is a religion that you are free to practice. While atheism is defined as a non-belief in deities, religion can also be defined as a belief system. It is my proposal that everyone lives to some form of belief system which could be construed as a their personal religion regardless if that personal religion recognizes a supernatural deity or not.
I say that because it is important to recognize that an atheist’s religion is usually placed in the faith of science. They demand empirical evidence for the God or gods of other religions but do not hold their own faith to the same scrutiny. To say otherwise, is to deny that the science of math has proven our very existence to be such an improbability that it becomes an impossibility and yet the believer of science holds to an assertion that it has to be true because “here we are”. And that is an untenable assertion to hold to unless the holder has a faith in the unprovable.
Welcome to your religion. And welcome to the uncertainty of certainhood.
There is an air of Don Quixote to all this conversation on removing statements from pieces of paper that no one looks at more than to see what denomination it is. Want to remove the pyramids and other religious based relics from the paper as well?
Very well put, I couldn’t have said it better myself!
And totally inaccurate. ..
Atheism is not a religion.
Atheism requires no faith.
The rest is total rhetoric.
I believe that we need to make ourselves more inclusive not less. In God we Trust was added to our money and our pledge of allegience much later in the country’s history and should now be removed. Our forefathers selected the correct motto for our country (E pluribus unum) and we should put THAT on everything. It’s a much better motto to have IMHO.
By the way, E pluribus unum means Out of Many, One.
To believe or not to believe……
Let’s get one thing straight, most people claim to be atheist because they are both arrogant and ignorant. Not saying that those who do believe are not ignorant, but they in most cases put their faith into a belief system that more or less helps them be better people. There are to many self proclaimed atheists out there that could really use some guidance in their lives because they really don’t qualify to graduate out of the (sheep) herd that generally follow religious teachings. Unfortunately they are arrogant to the point to where they believe they are arrogant to the point of realizing they don’t want any guidance in their lives, but ignorant enough to really still need it.
I find that given the right circumstances most proclaimed atheists I have met will prove to be a follower of some sort of religion. They live a life of denial and will most likely come back into their fold if they should live a long enough life.
This being said, why become outraged about words? If you are not being forced to literally practice a religion, then no harm is done to you in the way of your rights being violated. While the currency in your pocket may have the word God on it, it does not imply any sort of acceptance on your behalf.
Like it or leave it, this country was created in the manner it was based on the systems and beliefs of our forefathers. These words are more so a tribute to these individuals rather than an intentional affront to any arrogant individuals out there. If you are offended by this, get over yourself because you are not that important.
A true atheist understands that religions are important to some, and see no harm in such trivial items. Just as you choose not to believe, do not insist that others can’t. Recognize things for their true meaning and intentions and not as some sort of personal attack on you. I guess the basis is this, grow up and quit playing like you are something that you are not.
I actually found a $50 note from the 1950’s series that DOES NOT have “In God We Trust” on it. If the conservative people from the 1950’s didn’t see the need for it on their money, why should we?
Ah, how the atheists on here sound just as self-righteous as the Religious Right. “My ideology is right which makes me superior to you!”
Which religion has killed the most people in the last 100 years?
Communism – which requires atheism.
Josef Stalin & Mao Zedong killed nearly 100 million people.
“Oh, but Hitler was Roman Catholic!”
If I told you my skin was black, would you believe me even though I was white?
Look at how anti-Christ some of the Nazi creeds were and you can deduce that Hitler killed in the name of racial purity, not in the name of roman catholicism.
If anything, the dollar should say “We’re all agnostic.” Since that’s the truth.
Oh – and I know communism isn’t literally a religion, but it sure requires a lot of religious fervor doesn’t it? I mean after all, the Chinese government sure is doing a good job at oppressing the Tibetans right now.
Oh but wait, Tibet is just a “stupid theocracy” right? So they deserve to have their culture snuffed out by the occupying atheist government?
All of you that don’t IGWT on your money can send it to me.
Well, the US is really not a God fearing nation now anyway. I guess the liars and thieves in DC would be hypocrits if they said they wanted it to stay on the dollar. They worship money and power; they are their gods. They prostitute themselves to big powers.
By the way, is it true that worpress blocks certain persons whose blogs are too controversial but do not violate their rules?
Taking prayer out of the schools worked out real well. Haven’t we learned anything?
In God We Trust is more about tradition than it is about religion.
To an average American It should mean the freedom to worship any God or none.
This whole rift between Christians and atheist is just sad and childish.
It’s about as childish as demanding for the confederate flag to be banned for what it stood for in the past.
Both of these symbols are American for better or worse. We need to acknowledge this as nothing but a wedge issue and accept them as part of our history period.
Grow up.
I propose this new dollar bill:
http://spacedust.atspace.com/dollar_bill.html
Mark,
I first want to say, I have nothing against you, or any atheist. I do not cling to any religion, but I always think, consider, and wonder about that which I could never understand or prove either way. I had to comment, though, on your poll, and more pointedly on the many replies it brought – namely your own which said, “money rules [ ] otherwise religion would not be so popular.”
I want you to go to the homeless shelters, and the soup kitchens, and the park benches acting as beds for too many people these days – then tell me “money rules.” Most of those people are quite religious regardless of their money circumstances.
I’ve been homeless. I did it by choice to be there for a friend who was down and out. Those several months proved to me that I didn’t need to be surrounded by all my wonderful furniture and high end electronics and MONEY. Money does not rule.
God or gods do not rule either. Whether any of them exist or not, it doesn’t matter what is on a dollar bill (which is nothing but a representation of value and of no intrinsic value). It all comes down to the concept that man rules his own life – and that is the only thing he has power over.
So, Mark, you and your little club will not change the markings on currency. It is not up to you, me, or any other single man or woman, but only up to those who control the printing plates. Those people answer only to Congressional Acts that regard to the printing of currency, and/or whatever markings and phraseology shall or shall not appear on said currencies.
If you’re so determined to wage a war against God or gods, then you’re: A.) Fighting battles with nothing, according to your belief, and B.) You will need a vast majority despite your refusal to acknowledge that majority is how things are still done in this country. The masses called for this motto one hundred and thirty six years ago, and the masses will be the only catalysts of its removal or alteration.
If you win your war against an intangible enemy, good on ya. But, remember that if atheism rules the land and changes everything to do with religion – you’ll have to go to work on Sundays, you’ll lose all those holiday breaks and the holiday pay that comes with, and many more things you reap a large benefit from – which came from religion.
In the end, I think I would have to vote on your empty poll in favor of keeping the motto on there. It happens to be the officially mandated national motto since July 30, 1956, so this is national law as well as tradition. Before this, the phrase itself has been on various forms of our currency since the Act of Congress of April 22, 1864. If you don’t want to honor any God, then don’t, but it is just un-American to turn your back on national history. If that is unimportant to you, and you spurn all that is American, please move elsewhere.
Beyond the honoring of long-running American tradition, removal of the motto would stand as a useless and massive waste of money and effort that could be spent so much more appropriately on the people out there alone and broken, because someone didn’t have compassion, or a Christian heart, or whatever you call being a good human being.
You want to make a statement about how religion doesn’t have to be the conveyor of morality and ideals… go feed a bum, take a lonely old person to lunch, or start volunteering at the many services designed to lift up fallen humanity. When people see an atheist can be a great person without any prompting from a God, then maybe you’ll start to have some legitimacy to your beliefs – and maybe you just might be able to slowly build more support so that, someday in the unlikely future, you too can have an Act Of Congress just for you. However, I doubt that will ever happen.
Sorry to burst the bubble.
I feel so sad for those who have no faith… who truly believe that we evolved from who knows what… (remember, Darwin’s THEORY of Evolution is just that-a THEORY, never proven). Besides, if the earth, planets, solar system, and everything else out there in the universe resulted from the Big Bang, who or what created the materials that caused the Big Bang?? Intelligent Design aka God, that’s who! Don’t sell yourselves short, folks.
This country was founded upon freedom and diversity of beliefs, not the “christian values” that most people believe. Our founding fathers were Deists, skeptical believers of a hands-off deity known as cod. It is APPALLING and SICK and WRONG that our currency in this Christian-run, corrupt country still displays the name of a ridiculous, false god: the christian god.
Note: It is not a mistake that I did not capitalize “god” or “christian.” I do not see them as proper nouns, nor proper beliefs.
Who cares? Get involved with a better cause …
Dude. I clicked yes and my money still says “In God We Trust”. You website is broken!!
It’s fine. Who cares as long as buys what you need?
It would be nice, but I’d rather have a US dollar that was actually worth a damn. Getting rid of a lame motto won’t help me much if I’m still getting paid with Monopoly money.
Not so fast, folks. Why would a “conservative” or other righty want it on there? Isn’t it symbolic of greed, linking God with money, implicitly turning money into an idol? As Macluhan said, the medium is the message…
I’m so broke a holiday job at Radio Shack looks good. I don’t care what the money says as long as I can buy rent and food with it. Seriously, I have a lot more things to worry about than what my money says. Who wastes time reading money anyway?
Of course. It actually wasn’t there originally, which is not so important as the obvious irony in that we trust in money in this country and base most of our decisions on that, not any belief in a god. It wasn’t for a god we invaded those two countries, but for self-defense, revenge, and for hegemony in the oil producing regions. God never came into it. Our entire economy almost came crashing down, based on the idea that money is #1. Money is our god, so, in a sense, it’s correct, but still, it’s a lie, and belief in a god has no place in civil matters.
Keep “in God we trust”!
It’s not a matter of whats fair, its about truth. We were right in putting “In God We Trust” on our currency. People have come up with a bunch of theories, and gods, but the only God that holds true, no matter what, is Jesus Christ, and we should put our trust in him. It’s foolish to do otherwise. There’s no debate. You can come up with different things to make yourself feel better, but one day every knee will bow, and every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord.
Keep the truth.
Very Good!!
theurlhomepage.wordpress.com
My $20 from 1950 looks perfectly good without it:
http://i42.tinypic.com/2aeyujb.jpg
That’s what I keep a Sharpie pen in my purse for – to black it out.
Religion needs to stay in churches and homes, and not wander anywhere else, imposing itself on the rest of us.
Let’s just get rid of the federal reserve and money in general. Please watch: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912
Money is a big farce with nothing to back it.
Im british and what some might call ‘religious’.
But aside from these things, doesn’t rejecting these themes from your currency inevitably reject the history of the country? hear me out. i know its not something you might agree with, but without these symbols (look them up…the pyramid and the eye etc) there is no history for the country to stand on – be defined by! i think it’s beautiful…..something to look at and say ‘here we are’.
maybe even if you see it as something the country has fortunately moved away from, then its still progress to be proud of? without any of that…you will find yourself with something more similar to monopoly money.
The nunber of people that think “separation of church and state” is a part of the constitution is appalling. If a person does not understand the Constitution or the Bill of Rights, they run the risk of having their rights abused. Our Constitution is an extention of our Declaration of Independance and if people took the time to read either they would find that this country’s founders were deeply influenced by God. I wonder how many in congress, know that they can’t find that seperation in the constitution.
As a long-time, militant atheist, I really don’t care either way. Heck, put jesus on a cross on it for all I care.
I did see an opinion somewhere that it’s a bit perverse to think that a god would want his name on money, which I agree with..
NO – do not remove In God We Trust. You idiot people. The United States of American was founded on God. THE one true God. Look it up in your history books. George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, the list goes on and on that state their firm beliefs that this great nation is founded on the Word of God. Aside from the ‘God’ issue – why does everyone always want to remove things that have significant historical value. It isn’t hurting anyone. I as a Christian deserve as much respect about what I believe as any person with or without a religion they follow. I do not discriminate about what you do or do not believe. Why is everyone always trying to change what I believe. I’m tired of my civil rights behing infringed on. In God We Trust hurts no one – leave it alone if for nothing more than it’s historical meaning.
@David: “To believe that nothing created all we know to be is to abuse logic and achieve the status of insane.”
Where did god come from? To believe everything was created with a puff of magic by a invisible, secret sky wizard is any more sane?
this nation was founded upon men who trusted and believed in God. despite one’s beliefs one has to respect the beliefs upon which our great country was founded.
If atheists can so easily ignore a higher power (when billions upon billions think something is up there) they should be able to ignore a saying on their money.
I don’t understand why everyone wants this world so devoid of religion or culture. Soon enough there will government mandated uniforms and no one will be able to speak of culture or religion in any public place.
I don’t care about your so-called “higher power”. What does it look like? Does it talk to you?
NO. It’s been part of the U.S. for so long… we can’t get rid of it now!
Go Bolts
The “United States” was founded as a nation by a bunch of folks trying to escape from a government that forbid them from worshiping God. They felt that God called them to leave their homeland and set out, across the ocean to discover what God had there. Now I think we can all agree that they could have done a better job of working with the indigenous people the Europeans they “invaded” the Americas but like it or not, the “United States” as a nation was founded by a people who set out to “Trust God.” I think removing “in God we Trust” and public displays of the 10 commandments would be the same as putting a stick of dynamite in Plymouth rock. We’d be destroying part of our national history and the heritage on which we were founded. The more we try to deny that heritage, the more we separate ourselves from the divine provision that go the pilgrims safely to the Americas, and I don’t think we want to find out where the road ends. Just my two cents.
You wonder why our country is so screwed up. It isn’t solely Bush’s fault, although he did a lot towards that end.
It’s because people stopped believing- in themselves, but more importantly in what’s right and wrong. The same people who are the first to chant “Hope” at every turn or sign of Obama can also be the last to understand what hope really is: Patience with self. Faith in God. Hope for something better beyond ourselves and our little rational minds.
While this country was founded on the principle of freedom of religion, it wasn’t founded with the atheist principle of freedom from religion. Whether people want to admit it or not (look at the history books or the constitution, for that matter), this country was founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs, just as so many Arab countries were founded on Islamic beliefs of some sort.
The difference is, in thsoe countries they hold a gun to your head and make you worship Allah. Christians here don’t hold a gun to your head to worship Jesus (at least real Christians don’t). You people make it sound like having it on a dollar bill is like having a gun to your head. Quite simply, it isn’t. Get some perspective.
Another theocrat.
May God open your eyes to see him and learn to love him.
@ Michel…
You need a motto on your money to be closer to your God??? How shallow!!
I’m a believer. And I don’t think it belongs there. And while I’m at it, I’d take the “under God” out of the Pledge.
I also believe in keeping Church and State separate. Putting this on our currency, to me, is an endorsement of religion by the State.
Namaste.
QuakerDave,
Exactly! Too many have missed the point that the founding fathers of our country attempted to install…the separation of church/state. It is our job to retain that. We lost that grip back in the 50s and it has been downhill ever since.
That’s why Jesus, the Bible and Christianity are NOT mentioned in our Constitution. This topic is about that very thing.
To want God on your money and in your Pledge of Allegiance is a pro-theocratic stance just like we claim of Iran and other countries.
The “United States” was founded as a nation by a bunch of folks trying to escape from a government that forbid them from worshiping God.
Someone needs a history lesson…
It’s been there longer than we have been here. Hasn’t it?
It was placed on a couple types of coins in 1864 and added to our paper money 1956.
Ok. This is stupid. They are going to keep it on the money, but if you want to discuss it then im sorry but whoever wants it taken off is wrong.
america was founded on christian values and is only where it is today based on those values. so without the “god”, america would not be a united country and it would probably now be segregated into groups of people of different cultures with little if any laws.
i like cake.
have a nice day.
Wrong.
I can’t believe that people here are dicussing of removing the Phrase. Our existance in this world or the after depends on His will. May Jesus bless u all.
Believe it! You want theocracy? Move to Iran.
Put the image of Augustus Caesar on it, let’s bring back the glory days of Rome!
Really though, I would recommend that you put fiscal stimulus messages on the money such as:
Spend me immediately!
or
Messages that encourage fiscal discipline such as:
Do you really need that?
we got to have American Athiest Dollar and American Theist Dollar.
Wait, We need some female figures in american dollars as well.
Cheers !!
Even soudi arabia has the Theocracy.
Also the United States of America was not founded on ‘the figure of god’. Indeed, the founding fathers (I have to admit, I do find it strange how those all too human people seem to have become almost saints in US culture) were very careful indeed to make sure that secular notions were solidly put into place at the time.
I guess if I was that miserable I would try and bring everyone else to my level as well.
That particular statement is also intellectually dishonest to say the least, certainly not supported by any sort of evidence. I am an atheist. Am I miserable? No. I actually feel quite happy today. I have a loving girlfriend, a job I quite enjoy doing and all the other little things that make life quite nice.
Other statements in the comments listed also reveal a remarkable level of ignorance from certain people. An example of this being:
remember, Darwin’s THEORY of Evolution is just that-a THEORY, never proven
I don’t think you could demonstrate a greater ignorance of scientific terminology if you tried. There is no hierarchy of science which means that a theory is worth any less than a scientific law. The terms ‘law’ and ‘theory’ are actually quite interchangeable a lot of the time in science.
The Theory of Evolution is a scientific theory, which is somewhat different to how the term ‘theory’ is often used in wider society. In science, the term refers to ”a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena” to put it rather simply. Scientific theories need to meet certain criteria to be considered as such; being observable, testable and so on. Scientific theories must undergo rigorous testing and verification which is what the Theory of Evolution has passed time and again. There is no ‘hierarchy of truth’, a scientific theory is not worth less than a ‘law’.
It was founded on the figure of God. Secular notions were solidly put into their place, yes, but “secular notions” are not equal to atheism.
This topic isn’t about atheism. If you want to discuss atheism, do so in another topic.
Many people have overlooked the fact that there are polytheistic citizens in the US, such as Hindus and Pagans. In God We Trust is deliberately aimed at persons of monotheistic beliefs.
I’m not a religious right winger by any measure. I’m moderately conservative on some issues and liberal on others. On religious issues I tend pretty liberal. Still, I feel God has a place on our currency. We can’t erase all the things the founders of this nation did. It’s a part of our history. There’s a fear of the mention of God right now, because the right winger neo-con fundamentalists have us worried. Let’s not over react.
The third commandment warns about taking the name of G-d in vain. It would seem like printing that name on currency is an example of that.
@ chamblee54…
Not to mention “idolatry”.
India, in spite of being the country being torn across so many religious lines, has the seemingly most agnostic mottto, Truth Alone Wins, ( Satyameva Jayate ). I don’t even consider it as a Secular motto, since by putting onus on truth, it has effectively put into question the existence of God, just about leaving enough space for either way. But then again, it is not whats on the money that is important, but who has it is all that is relevant.
If your lawmakers are wise enough to distinguish the meaning of “God” from “god” in the biblical sense, either in the New Testament and the Old Testament or its usages in the Qur’anic or hinduistic senses, you the public who circulate your money with the sentence “IN GOD WE TRUST” will also be notified by them. It is best when your lawmakers believe that YHWH is the Creator of the Heavens and the Eart and if they acknowledge that Jesus Christ (YHWSA HMSYH) is HIS SENT saviour, THEN CHANGE it into ” IN YHWH WE TRUST”
No, I’d prefer to just delete the entire dollar as currency.
I think In God we trust should stay on your dollar (Im Aus). It reminds ppl that there is actually a creator who will save you!
I’m baffled at the amount of moderately sane individuals on this board who think the country was founded by Christians or purely on religious idealism. Religious egoism is never any big surprise, but revising history certainly is. They might look up the views of a few little-known fellas like Franklin, Jefferson, Paine…the list goes on.
Where does this misinformation originate? Who or what incubates these notions? Scapegoating “ignorance” is hardly blameworthy when intent is involved. And lastly, does anyone have a Delorean so Ize can get back to the 21st century?
@ Jesse…
It’s called theocratic thinking.
Yes delete it. The bible says don’t take Gods name in vain. Since America doesn’t trust in God then whats the point of lying to our detriment? All it does is deglorify Him.
I fall under the category of hyperconservative. I am a Christian. I believe the Bible is the literal, infallible word of God.
With that said, I think the whole “in God we trust” thing is a total lie. America doesn’t trust in God. So, because of that, I would like it removed.
Pthhhhh. Thumbs down to theocracy. The phrase should go.
I dont think so. It s actually looks apt. However, its not the money per se but the LOVE for money is the root of all evil.
Cheers..JohnsonSasikumar
USA and the rest of us on planet Earth, have to decide to grow up and face facts. No trust, faith or prayer ever worked for a victim being pushed into a gas chamber, rushed into an alley and held down for rape, or bullied in the school yard.
The men who wrote “In God we trust” had the power that money, largely inherited, gave them. They could afford to make silly theist claims. It is a form of false advertising to promise kids that ‘God’ will look after them. The filthy lucre blurb is a similar lie.
Cy Quick at
mydigest.wordpress.com
Whether it is the government currency or the government himself. None of them should have to do anything with religion.
The founding fathers of the United States were aware of this. But the people from today have forgotten about it.
In God we Trust “MUST” Remain
It’s one way of reminding us in this materialistic world and busy world , that all we need is GOD!
Money IS God to some.
Maybe someone needs to remind the government of the separation between church and state. This was okay when being an atheist was practically criminal and even the least religious were at least Deists, but now is a different matter.
And while we’re at it, how about removing all laws that have a religious justification.
Maybe it should read: In God some trust. What do you think?
Did you know that in 1892, the Supreme Court declared that America was “a Christian nation”, and they listed dozens of cases for precedence? Look it up.
The phrase “separation of church and state” came from a letter by Thomas Jefferson — not an official government document — and it was to a minister to reassure him that the government would not restrict his religious freedom. Shortly after that, Jefferson attended Christian church services on government property. Back then, the govt. paid ministers for Congress — and they still do. No one was forced to follow Christianity, but most wanted to.
In Wallace v. Jaffree in 1985, the Supreme Court said, “There is simply no historical foundation for the proposition that the framers intended to build a wall of separation [between church and state]….The recent court decisions are in no way based on either the language or intent of the framers.”
There’s a lot of rewriting of our nation’s history. I realize not everyone agrees with the founding father’s ideals, but we should be truthful about the past. If things should be changed now, let it be voted on so the majority can decide, not special interest groups and lobbyists.
While God IS money for others.
Mainly those silly evangelical leaders you see on TV flogging off things like DVDs and ‘blessed sand’.
Fools are the people who do not want to believe in God and bigger fools are those who want to impose that idea on others.
My opinion is that “In God we trust” should not be on currency, neither should a head of state use “God bless you” in his speeches.
The US is supposed to be a modern democratic country, this means independent from religion. It’s just a matter of being consistent.
On the other hand, those that are very much favour having God on your money, also will very much favour having “Allah is great” on Arab money then, won’t they?
This too is a matter of being consistent.
Jesus said, “Trust in God, trust also in me.” I like that and make it my life’s purpose.
Optimus Prime said “Freedom is the right of all sentient beings”. I like that and make it my life’s purpose.
Matt … May Optimus Prime bless you.
Those who believe that the phrase should remain.. ask yourself how you would feel if it was ‘in allah we trust’ or ‘in ganesh we trust.’ If your opinion changes when the name of the god does, then you are a hypocrite. If it does not, congratulations.
They would want THAT removed, though! LOL!!!
The level of religionist ignorance and stupidity on this thread is beyond incredible.
This knucklehead —–> JI, said, “Let’s get one thing straight, most people claim to be atheist because they are both arrogant and ignorant.”
No, Atheists are simply without a deity belief. Other beliefs and characteristics are unique to the individual and beyond the scope of Atheism. Yes, reason, logic and rational thinking is their foundation, contrary to religionists’ irrational and delusional thought processes.
There is no such thing as an Atheist belief system. Speaking of sheep, that’s what religionists have, especially in the following of their “shepherd”.
Atheists typically seek guidance in Truth, not the ignorant harmful teachings of an Iron Age cult of fear. And if an Atheist follows a religion, then by definition they are not Atheists. Duh.
The words cause outrage because they continue this mind-numbing dogma, are bigoted, prejudiced and harmful. Ultimately it is Unconstitutional. It shows Gov’t support of religion.
Your Founding Fathers rant is complete nonsense. Nothing of the sort happened.
A true Freethinker knows that religions are dangerous, and need to be done away with. You can believe in any lies you want, but don’t try to impose them on others. It’s laughable that you speak of true meaning. YOu wouldn’t know the Truth if it hit you on the head.
Ipu4me:
Actually Atheism and religion are not mutually exclusive. Most Buddhists are atheists, depending on how you define them, and depending on which school they belong to. Similarly, the claim that there is Atheism is incompatible with a belief system is tenuous at best.
Jesse, you are wrong. Actually Atheism and religion ARE mutually exclusive. There is no overlapping magisteria. Buddhist Schmuddist. No, Buddhists are not Atheists. Sorry, but they have supernatural beliefs.
Most importantly, you stated that, “the claim that there is Atheism is incompatible with a belief system is tenuous at best.” Sorry, but you are making shit up to fit your logical brain fart. Atheism is simply “without a deity belief”. There is NO belief system as a part of Atheism. NONE. ZERO. ZILCH. ZIP. NADA.
Ipu4me,
Yes, the mutual exclusion issue is a complex one. Someone like Heidegger (who I tend to agree with) would say that, but only if Atheism does not prescribe its own beliefs, which it does. The literal meaning of Atheism is surprisingly weak, only meaning the lack of belief in a single god. So what of polytheists? Pantheists? And as for Buddhism, you obviously don’t know its core tenets, which inherently deny acknowledgment of prior truths except those one can arrive at through reason.
But I do take offense to your statement, along with so many other uneducated “new” Atheists, that Atheism cannot have any belief system. That is NOT Atheism; that is NIHILISM. While there is such a thing as Atheistic nihilism, any Existential Atheist would dispute that as a contradiction. Apparently you have never read any Existentialist lit (no big surprise for a “new” Atheist jackass), which has a far more coercive (in a positive sense) system of ethics than any religion out there. Hit the books. And until then, please quit speaking on behalf of Atheism, as you don’t know the first thing about its varieties, or its core moral principles.
ipu4me:
Atheism doesn’t dictate that one can’t have spiritual belief. By itself, atheism just means lack of belief in a gods or deities. It’s entirely possible to believe in, say, reincarnation, and still be an atheist.
In fact, there are plenty of schools of thought that incorporate atheism into a larger and more thorough philosophy; sometimes these have other spiritual or supernatural beliefs associated with them (such as the above mentioned buddhism), but often they don’t. Go check out a copy of The Stranger by Albert Camus from your local library if you want an excellent example of a philosophy — absurdism — that includes atheism, but is more than just atheism.
Jesse, the mutual exclusion issue is not complex. Science is fact based and religion is myth and superstition.
Atheism is simply “without a deity belief”. There is NO “belief” in Atheism, and it does NOT involve only a “single deity” as you claim. (There is, however, Strong Atheism, which does make a knowledge claim.)
Who gives a shit about polytheism, Pantheism and Buddhism? It’s all delusional thinking based on lies, superstition and a complete and total lack of evidence. I do know its tenets. More supernatural and spiritual nonsense.
My statement was meant to offend, mock and ridicule your beliefs, as one of the enablers of the greatest horrors mankind has ever created. You, sir, are offensive because of your support of this mythological and nonsensical dogma.
I’m glad you “know” I’m a “new” Atheist. And no moron, Atheism does NOT have a belief. It is a lack of belief in a deity. Anything professed or opined beyond that, is beyond Atheism. Wow, are you whacko. You see, this is not Nihilism. Nihilism has nothing to do with Atheism. You really need to do your homework before posting like the fool you are.
You can try to justify your convoluted logic by adding modifiers to Atheism, but that’s almost as stupid as mentioning Nihilism in the same sentence as Atheism.
Again, Existentialism added to Atheism makes for a nice comfy pillow upon which to rest your empty head. Existentialism has nothing to do with Atheism. Atheism is simply “without a deity belief”.
And sorry, if you act based religion, then it is neither ethical nor moral. I would suggest that you hit the books, but it’s obvious you’ve never encountered one without crayons and numbers on the page.
As a long time Atheist, let me say that you are typical of the worst of the religionist type…wrong in everything you say, uninformed, obviously unread and with an IQ below 90.
probabilityzero,
You have gone too far. Atheism is simply “without a deity belief”. And can you please define spiritual belief? It’s another supernatural nonsensical word. And sorry to burst your bubble, but, there is no spirit. Or perhaps you can define it and tell me where it is?
No, a belief in reincarnation does not fall within the realm of Atheism. If you believe in reincarnation, it is highly unlikely you are an Atheist. You see, truth and reality are valued by Atheists. A belief in an afterlife is an unproven belief in the supernatural without a shred of evidence. More mumbo-jumbo.
You mention schools of thought which use Atheism to mean something other than it is. Too bad, but this is crap which some apologists try to use in order to create a Straw Man or to bolster other logical fallacies.
Sorry, but you’ll have to provide evidence for your spiritual or supernatural beliefs. And by the way, in all likelihood I read L’Etranger in French before you were born.
And there can be no greater theater of the absurd than religion and spirituality.
It is a new day and age in which you will no longer get to spew your bullshit and not be mocked and ridiculed for your delusional thinking.
Ipu4me:
Existentialism and Atheism have nothing in common??? Hilarious! All you did was repeat everything you said before instead of actually refuting anything, stringing together a bunch of ad hominems to mortar tenuous arguments and distract from your fundamental lack of a counterpoint. So that, what you just did, and what you continue to do, is a manifestation of your “new” Atheism? Grand! You’re more absolutist than any religious fundy I know! Congrats. I suggest you inform yourself with something other than wikipedia articles written by teenagers. And I love the trolly IQ bloviations–classic self-defeating argument, because there are no such measurements! Your trophy’s in the mail for resolving every remaining mystery of philosophy and science purely because you claim to be an “atheist.” Oh my Gods, LMAO!
Quoting ipu4me: “My statement was meant to offend, mock and ridicule your beliefs, as one of the enablers of the greatest horrors mankind has ever created. You, sir, are offensive because of your support of this mythological and nonsensical dogma.”
That’ll convince readers to consider your opinion / beliefs… NOT!
Instead of discussing facts, this turns into name-calling and trying to offend people. That doesn’t get us anywhere — except more angry at each other.
Dear Thomas Wayne,
I don’t give a damn about converting deluded religionists like you who already have the answers without a shred of evidence. You are lost. The idea is to refuse to allow this harmful crap to continue to be spewed without challenging it’s lunacy. I am simply pointing out the truth that your beliefs are complete bullshit.
Fact? You have the nerve to mention facts?!?! It is you, the religionist, who has NO facts, no evidence. None. You have the burden of proof, and you have failed miserably.
And I’m not angry at you, just pointing out that you are delusional and your silly superstitions will fade away none too soon.
Jesse, you are one clueless dude. When you graduate High School and take a few college level classes, then come back and post something that makes sense.
No, if you undestood what was said, you would in fact know that Existentialism and Atheism have nothing in common. You see, Atheism is simply “without a deity belief”. Nothing more, nothing less.
The ad hominems are deserved, since you hold delusional and whacky beliefs that will not get by without mockery and ridicule. Get a spine and lose the whacko beliefs.
And since you missed the point, I’ll repeat, you are attributing characteristics to Atheism which it does not have. You do so to fit your lame argument. Sorry, no pass this time bible banger.
And sorry you missed the obvious counterpoint I made in several posts, namely that existentialism has nothing to do with Atheism, .
New Atheism? You are really out there. It’s called facts, truth, logic and reality. You are living in a fantasy world based on myths. Delusional.
Absolutist? Nope. Fact based is the real position. You have none. You are being called out. Provide evidence for your superstitions. Any verifiable evidence. Your cult has had 2,000 to try. Let’s see the best you’ve got. I’ll wait.
And if verifiable evidence comes along, as a Freethinker I will change my mind. Something you are incapable of doing since you started out with the answers.
And sorry, I don’t use Wikiwhatever. Guess that’s your domain. “trolly IQ bloviations” WTF? Apparently you are in pain. Sorry if it hurts.
I am not resolving philosophical arguments, just pointing out that your beliefs are asinine. Again, Atheism says and does nothing you claim.
It’s worth repeating, My statement was meant to offend, mock and ridicule your beliefs, as one of the enablers of the greatest horrors mankind has ever created. You, child, are offensive because of your support of this mythological and nonsensical dogma.
Ipu4me:
Thank you for confirming my point for the umpteenth time by swiftly ignoring any argument at hand in favor of an extremely superficial view of the infallibility of “logic” and “facts”, a slew of intellectually-insecure ad hominems, summarily finished off with your hyper-judgmental assertion that I am a (?!) “bible thumper,” or whatever other preloaded epithet. You are symbolic of the fact that “new Atheism” is likely neither. I find you are either joking or just incredibly ill-informed, but either way have a nice evening trolling the blogs and thoroughly defacing real Atheistic principles with an imaginary degree of scientific certainty which even any scientist would reject… must be a friggin wonderful life! Hallelujah!
Jesse, Jesse, jesse….another lost religionist without a clue.
You see dear child, you have no valid point, nor have you made any argument that hasn’t been thoroughly debunked. None. You keep rambling on about Existentialism without a lick of understanding.
You are wrong – no one made a claim that logic and facts are infallible. That is your Straw Man. And again, the ad hominems are fitting and appropriate, and in no way dilute the fact that you lack any credibility, facts or valid statements. And yes bible banger, take your book of babble and…well, enough said about that.
You keep talking about “New Atheism”. Get a clue, and stop tossing out this term you love to use so much. This is nonsense, and has nothing to do with the fact that you have not presented any valid points. None. Stop whining and put up or shut up. Go ahead, say ANYTHING you are led to believe is intelligent. I’ll be waiting to see what other crap you dream up.
And fortunately, I am obviously so much more informed than you that your pathetic attempts at debate are sad at best. Pathetic really.
Real Atheistic principles? What an asshat. There is no such thing. Atheism is ONLY “without a deity belief”. Please try to grasp that concept for the umpteenth time.
And yes, despite your lack of understanding on the subject, The Theory Of Evolution is as close to certainty as possible, given nothing is 100% certain.
And yes, in addition to being an Atheist, I am a Humanist. Oops, I’m sure you will need to look that up. That’s where values, morals, ethics and Truth meet reality. Concepts completely foreign to you superstition based whackos.
paper money backed by a debt, the debt of a bond, a bond redeemable in dollars. Does anyone see the irony there?
Logically, an atheist could believe in something like life after death or reincarnation, because those beliefs do not technically rely on a deity. In a practical sense, very few atheists actually hold these beliefs, because they usually are associated with a deity, but the point I was making is that they can be defined broadly enough to not necessarily require belief in a deity. Thus, the buddhists that are atheists mentioned earlier.
I hate empty statements like this. What the hell does this even mean? Who says truth and reality can be objectively understood, or even exist? What is it about being an atheist that says I have to care about them at all?
Figures you’d capitalize atheism (why do trolls often arbitrarily capitalize words in the middle of sentences?), since you’re making it out to be more than it is. My definition of atheism is simply the lack of belief in god. What does it mean to you? Something about valuing truth or some other bullshit like that? Ironically, you’re making atheism sound very religious in nature. Just because someone is an atheist doesn’t necessarily mean they’re smart, or skeptical, or anything else. It just means they don’t believe in god. They can hold absurd beliefs just like anyone else can, and often do (see: Ayn Rand clones).
probabilityzero, thanks for your reply. Some good comments.
Yes, I agree that most Atheists reject the supernatural, but technically this is beyond the realm of Atheism per se. But evidence is the key, and there is no evidence for invisible cloud beings or the supernatural. None. And although you may not like “truth and reality are valued by Atheists”, it means that Atheists demand evidence in order to accept your deity. You know, something that is demonstrable, repeatable and can be tested. Not something that was simply the creation of a group of ancient nomads and is without any foundation in reality.
We can certainly debate the philosophy of Truth if you wish, and argue over fine points of what might constitute reality, but I think we all realize what’s being addressed in these basic comments. perhaps not, and we should discuss this in another forum. Your call.
Buddhists are not Atheists. Sorry, they’re just not. They have supernatural beliefs without evidence. Again, technically they may be without a deity belief, but they still hold non-evidentiary supernatural afterlife beliefs. If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck and walks like a duck…..
And yes, truths can be understood, but ita collective understanding is not necessary to validate it’s truthfulness nor to make it valid. Understandably, some people refuse to deal in facts and instead choose to believe in fantasy.
“Figures you’d capitalize atheism”. Yep, although not a proper noun, it is just as reasonable to capitalize it as it is to capitalize your deity. And your definition of Atheism is correct (”…the lack of belief in god.”), except that my personal opinion is that the word “lack” implies a shortcoming. That’s why I use “without a deity belief”, as do most non-theists. And yes, I do value truth, something religion is lacking. And no, I am not making Atheism sound religious at all. You’re wrong.
But you’re right, Atheists can be just as stupid as those who believe in the supernatural and cloud beings. Atheists do not “not believe in god”. That involves knowledge, and falls under Strong Atheism which does make a knowledge claim.
And although I agree that Atheists can hold absurd beliefs, they would not be Atheistic beliefs. This is because Atheism has no beliefs. Atheism is without a belief. Absurd beliefs would be personal opinions of the individual beyond the scope of Atheism.
Yeah, I’m not an Ayn Rand fan either.
There’s also absolutely no proof that the US government planned 9/11, but I can show you more than a few atheists that believe it did. Being an atheist doesn’t inherently mean that you’re always skeptical and smart about what you believe. As I’ve said before, that’s simply beyond the definition of the word.
Imagine you grew up in the Soviet Union. Chances are you’d be an atheist, because likely everyone around you was, and it was all you were taught. This doesn’t mean you value truth or anything, it just means you were raised a certain way. Yet you’d still be as much of an atheist as I or anyone else here.
You say “technically they may be without a deity belief,” and to me that’s the very definition of atheism. You’re adding complexity to something that’s very simple. If you believe in a deity, you’re a theist. If you don’t, you’re an atheist.
BTW, not all Buddhists are atheists. Only a small percentage of them are.
I very much disagree. “Atheist” is a purely descriptive term.
I never said they would be. Beliefs held by an atheist do not equal atheistic beliefs. For example, I know this one Russian guy who’s racist, but the fact that he’s Russian has nothing to do with the fact that he’s racist. He just happens to be of Russian descent and dislike black people.
You’re using a new definition of atheism now. I thought you said you agreed with my previous definition.
They’re beyond the scope of the word atheism. The word atheism relates to belief in god. It has nothing more to do with reincarnation than being Russian has to do with racism.
Dear probabilityzero,
Why can’t you understand even the most basic concepts?
You said, “There’s also absolutely no proof that the US government planned 9/11, but I can show you more than a few atheists that believe it did.”
What you don’t grasp is that some 9/11 belief held by some Atheist has NOTHING to do with Atheism. Those are beliefs outside the scope of Atheism.
Being an Atheist means ONLY that you are without a deity belief. That’s it. Nothing more.
And your use of the “where you were born” crap is a perfect example of why you are a weak minded fearful bible banging Xian. You were force fed this superstitious nonsense as a citizen of the U.S.
You’re wrong, Atheism adds complexity to nothing.
You said “If you believe in a deity, you’re a theist. If you don’t, you’re an atheist.”
Wrong! Listen this time. Atheists do not, not believe in a deity. That’s something different which requires a knowledge claim, namely Strong Atheism.
No, Atheists are NOT without a belief. Atheists have all sorts of beliefs, they just have nothing to do with Atheism. Atheism is only without a deity belief.
I have never varied in my definition of Atheism. You have merely failed to understand what’s being said.
And if I may add that atheism is a very simplistic way of life… no gods and no supernatural bullshit to submit to.
I could ask the same of you. After your latest comment, I’ve become convinced that you’re a troll.
I absolutely agree with you, and nothing in my previous post contradicts what this. In fact, you just re-stated my point!
9/11 conspiracy belief has nothing to do with atheism because it does not relate to or depend on belief in god. Agree with me so far?
Similarly, belief in reincarnation has nothing to do with atheism because it does not depend on belief in god. Reincarnation has nothing more to do with atheism than 9/11 conspiracies.
Take your comment, and replace the mention of “9/11 conspiracies” with “reincarnation” and you’ll see what I was trying to say.
That was my point, which I’m sure you’ll completely misunderstand this time around as well. I don’t even know why I bother sometimes. Why is it so hard for you to understand this? Both beliefs are beyond the scope of atheism, which is why it is possible to be an atheist and still believe in reincarnation. You have yet to address this point. I’ve repeated this several times, and it seems like you purposefully refuse to understand my words, or just dismiss my words because you think I’m a “weak minded fearful bible banging Xian.” People like you are the reason I’m sometimes ashamed to call myself an atheist in public.
Figures, you can’t use reason so you resort to insulting me. As I’ve said before, I’m an atheist, not a christian, not that that should make any difference in the context of this debate.
Is English your second language? I never said it added complexity to anything — on the contrary, atheism is a much simpler explanation than the alternatives. What I said was that you were making atheism sound more complex than it is.
There was no ambiguity in my original wording. Here’s exactly what I said:
By that, I meant that I agreed with you when you said “technically they may be without a deity belief,” and I felt that you could have just ended your sentence there. You agree that the definition of atheism is “that you are without a deity belief,” so if someone is without belief in a deity, like you agreed some buddhists were when you said “technically they may be without a deity belief,” then why can’t we call them atheists?
So, in summary of your statements about this so far, you’ve said:
1. atheism means “that you are without a deity belief”
2. some buddhists are “technically may be without a deity belief”
By your own logic, doesn’t that make them atheists?
Also, how could you look at those sentences I wrote and think I’m saying atheism adds complexity to, well, anything? Either your reading comprehension is awful, or you’re intentionally trying to misrepresent my positions.
If I said I believed a deity did not exist, that would be strong atheism. “Not believing in a deity” and “lacking belief in a deity” both express weak atheism. Common mistake.
I quoted you saying that atheism meant “without belief,” which contradicts your assertion that atheism means “without belief in a deity.”
Additionally, you’ve stated before that atheism requires valuing truth and reality, which is false. In a more general sense, you seem to be assuming that atheism means no beliefs are allowed, or only beliefs based on evidence are allowed, both of which are false.
Dear probabilityzero,
Nope, you’re wrong yet again. Not a troll, just an Atheist who knows your bible banging and harmful beliefs in the supernatural are mere delusions. Pathetic fellow.
And you miss the point yet again. I am not proposing or asserting the claim. You are doing so. You need to provide evidence for your claioms. You have failed to do so. You also have failed to provide ANY basis for your beliefs in cult of Iron Age myth and/or Buddhism.
Your reincarnatiion and 9/11 rants are incomprehensible and are irrelevant to this discussion. Stay on topic asshat. And despite your claim that my coments were actually yours, well that’ just a lie. You have asigned characteristics and belifs to Atheism which it does not have.
What a moron, Atheism demands evidence for your myths, and all religious mumbo-jumbo. Reincarnation and Buddhism is included. Sorry you can’t grasp this.
No, it is people like you (obviously not an Atheist) who give intelligence, reason, logic and reality a bad name. You are part of the problem.
Reason is all I use. The ad homnems are deserved. You will be mocked and ridiculed for your harmful beliefs.
No, English is not my second language, but obvioulsy these concepts are well above your pay grade. I am not adding complexity, you are by trying to exempt Buddhism from falling within the religion pool. And again, Atheism is simply without a deity belief.
Taking my comments out of context is laughable. Please don’t try to summarize what I say, you will only get hurt.
You said, “By your own logic, doesn’t that make them [Buddhists] atheists? – NO. They have failed to provide evidence for their supernatural beliefs in an afterlife.
If I said I believed a deity did not exist, that would be strong atheism. “Not believing in a deity” and “lacking belief in a deity” both express weak atheism. Common mistake.
I have never varied in my definition of Atheism
Again, Atheism is simply “without a deity belief”. That’s it. Please write it down and memorize it. Sheesh….
No, I never said Atheism requires anything. You ae again misquoting me.
You are losing it, and becomoing more and more nonsensical with each post. Please join us back here in reality before you make another failed attempt at logic, reason and rational thought.
I guess you really don’t see the contradiction between those two statements. How can atheism “demand evidence for myths” when it’s only “without a deity belief?” Belief in a deity and belief in myths are not the same thing. Believing in a deity generally includes believing in myths, or vise versa, but it’s not always the case and it’s adding unneeded complexity to the word “atheist” to assume so. You were right when you said that atheism is just “without belief in a deity…” Atheism is not “without belief in myths or deities.”
I agree with this sentence. I also think it has nothing to do with atheism. This is the last time I’m going to say this, because I’m obviously feeding a troll, but atheism is just the absence of belief in a deity — an atheist can believe in all sorts of other things, like unproven supernatural beliefs, because they don’t rely on a belief in a deity.
I’ll post this again, because it sums up my point and you never responded to it:
1. atheism means “that you are without a deity belief”
2. some buddhists “technically may be without a deity belief”
Both of those are direct quotes from you. Tell me why someone who “technically may be without a deity belief” can’t be an atheist, just because their beliefs unrelated to atheism aren’t proven?
Statements like this are why I’m convinced you’re a troll. I’ve seen it before. The bad grammar, arbitrary capitalization of “Atheism,” unwarranted insults and assumptions are all classic signs of a troll.
You last post has reached a new peak of incomprehensibility. You’re more concerned with insulting me than you are with addressing my points. I’m sure you think you’re undefeated in your mind, but you aren’t going to win many debates in the real world by resorting to calling your opponent a moron.
Dear probabilityzero, or more aptly definitely zero,
Atheism demands evidence for your myths, and all religious mumbo-jumbo. Reincarnation and Buddhism is included. Again, Atheism is simply “without a deity belief”. That’s it.
OK, sit down and pay attention little boy while I take you to school. Perhaps you’ll get it this time. You see, as I keep repeating, Atheism is without a deity belief. Please write that down and then staple it to your clothing so you can reference it each time you try to redefine it to fit your convoluted logic.
Atheism does demand evidence for your extraordinary supernatural beliefs. You see, if evidence was discovered which demonstrated the existence of the supernatural deity, then there would be no justification for Atheism. Duh. You see, at that point Atheists would become theists, or else be delusional when trying to deny facts as you constantly do..
Yes, belief in a deity and belief in myths ARE EXACTLY the same thing. All deities are myths, And therefore, contrary to your nonsensical statement, Atheism IS without belief in mythological deities. Unless of course you have evidence for your mythological deity. No one will hold their breath waiting for you on that one.
Sorry, but no matter how badly you don’t want it to be true, in fact supernatural beliefs in an afterlife have plenty to do with Atheism. It’s a basic tenet of religions. C’mon, wake up.
You said, “this is the last time I’m going to say this, because I’m obviously feeding a troll, but atheism is just the absence of belief in a deity”. Yeah, right. You’ll be sure to continue spewing your twisted logic. And no, that’s what I said. Also, you are trying to introduce other Buddhist concepts of the afterlife and tried to claim that Atheism has no relation to this. Pure bunk.
And I’m not going to continue arguing with a uninformed and delusional asshat. An Atheist can believe in other things, but if it includes supernatural deities, then no, they are not Atheists.
Please don’t re-popst your ridiculous ideas. No one wants to hear them a second time, even though they provide laughs. They make no sense and have been debunked. But since you mistakenly said I didn’t address something you said, here we go:
I said atheism is simply without a deity belief. There can be a techincal argument made that since Buddhists don’t have a specific named deity that Atheism doesn’t come into play. However, they have a belief in an supernatural afterlife and reincarnation. These beliefs are NOT unrelated to religion you tool. They fall under the same delusional umbrella. Sheesh, read a book for crying out loud.
Nearly every statement you’ve made illustrates that you are an uneducated buffoon with nothing worthwhile to say. Sorry, just a true statement. And whatever you mean by calling me a troll, it probably has something to do with your whacky fairy tale beliefs and your utter lack of comprehension.
Speaking of incomprehensibility, I’ll hand it to you, you are the champion. You see, you are making no valid points. None. You are striking out and no one is even pitching. Ultimately moron, you haven’t presented anything to debate.
I never said they were unrelated to religion, I said they were unrelated to belief in a deity.
Once again you change your definition of atheism. Just a few sentences up you said it was “without a deity belief” and now you’re saying atheists can’t have any religious beliefs at all.
This is a simple list of the main tenants of buddhism. Here’s number 1:
To me, that makes them atheists.
I wasn’t the one that brought this up, but it happens to be true so I thought I’d defend it. I’m going to take a page from the previous posters that tried to debate you and left after you started doing nothing but insulting them.
I think it’s interesting that (so far) in this thread you’ve accused at least a few atheists of being christians. I’m sure that constitutes a brilliant argument in your mind, but it just makes you seem like the worst kind of irrational atheist.
Have a good day.
@ probabilityzero,
Wow. ON, and on, and on with the nonsense. You really have nothing to say, and it’s painful to read your blather.
“These beliefs are NOT unrelated to religion you tool.
I never said they were unrelated to religion, I said they were unrelated to belief in a deity.” You are an apoloogist of gargantuan proportions. Subtleties and nuanced thougth are lost on you.
Once again, you twist the facts. Atheism is without a deity belief. Get over it.
What a tool, religion IS about deities.
And you know where3 you can stick your Buddhism, right alongside with the other deluded beliefs based on the supernatural. You see, a deity IS supernatural. So is rebirth and Karma.
Sorry, your definition of Buddhists doies not make them Atheists. Philosophical Atheists can be argued, but that ultimately fails as well.
And n o matter bhow much you want your thought to be true, they are not. Perhaps ijn your mind, but we know where that has led you.
There is nothihng to debate. You see, you have failed with your burden of proof for your extraordinary claims. You have NO evidence. NO basis for your beliefs. None. That is delusional and falls under the heading of a mental illness.
And I have not accused any Atheists of being Xians.
Kisses to you.
Oh come on. Seriously? My “extraordinary” claim that “some buddhists are atheists” means I have a mental illness?
Or did you mean that as an attack on buddhists? If so, then you’re wasting your words. I’m not buddhist, and I’ve never claimed to be. Though you seem to think I’m christian, so go figure. And I, personally, would never accuse a religious person of having a “mental illness” just because they believe something they’ve been told to believe.
I don’t mean to be insulting, but you have to be joking. It’s painful to say this, because it feels like I’m stooping down to your level, but your irrational stubbornness reminds me of what I see from evangelical religious people. You refuse to even listen to what I have to say, and categorically dismiss it without understanding it.
I know I should just be ignoring the troll, but this is ridiculous.
I just love how you keep repeating this even though it actually supports my argument and contradicts yours. I guess you don’t understand that.
Well, you accused me of being Christian and I’m an atheist. There are a few examples above in this very thread, if I remember correctly. Really, it’s impossible to reason with you, because you ignore reason — all you do is insult, and here I am replying in kind.
You’re practically the embodiment of everything that’s wrong with this “new atheism” movement, if you’re not in-fact a christian trolling this site by acting the “evangelical atheist” that they falsely imagine most atheists to be.
There, I’m done. You can have the last word. Feel free to ignore what I say, misconstrue my words, what have you. Just go nuts, if it’ll make you feel better.
@ probabilityzero,
You are right, you have nothing to bring to a debate. Yes, your extraordinary claims of rebirth and Karma. That whacko bullshit is complete nonsense. That is, of course, unless you have evidence to justify those beliefs. Again, no one thinks you actually have any evidence for your supernatural beliefs. You ae not an Atheist no matter how much you would like to be. Sorry.
And if you don’t recognize delusion as a form of mental illness, you are a bigger idiot than you have shown, and that is huge.
Don’t worry, you can’t insult me. Your beliefs reveal you for the tool you are, and your level couldn’t be any lower if you tried. Sorry for your pain.
And what you mistakenly perceive as “stubbornness” is again another gross misrepresentation on your part. What you read is simply truth spoken to superstitiion.
Once again it is YOU have have to provide evidence for your claims. You have the burden of proof. You have the whacko beliefs of an evangelical zealot.
And no one is listening to what you say, because you have said nothing of value. Nothing at all. There is nothing to understand, because what you say is crapola. Nothing valid, nothing true. You are making it all up as you go.
Atheism is without a deity belief, and it supports my argument for Atheism, not your argument of lies trying to discredit Atheism and support Buddhism.
Reason is the basis for all my posts. Sorry you are in denial and can’t grasp even the most rudimentary philosophical and logical concepts. Please stop adding to your own pain.
Sorry, another one of your errors. I am not a “new Atheist”. I’ve been an Atheist far longer than you’ve been alive little man. You’ll perhaps grow up and learn a thing or two somewhere down the road.
Again, you are assigning attributes to Atheism and to me which neither possesses. And what a laugh, you are not done. There’s no doubt you’ll be lingering aound in the dark corners of other sites debating superstition. Let’s hope you actually have something to say next time I run into you.
It has no business being on our money in the first place. It needs to go away.
I think that In God We Trust should be and stay on our money and in the Pledge of Allegience. This country was founded under God and that’s exactly how i think it should stay. I know that our country needs God more than you people may think.
The USA is not a nation founded on christianity or any other religion. And why would it need god, who is nothing but a mythical figure whose existence is almost certain not to be true?
I think the USA would be better off with Optimus Prime as a moral teacher and figure head.
You haven’t a clue of what you are talking about! You get a big fat zero for your history, and you need to check out what the facts before you write crap like you are spewing out!!!
And what facts has Matt overlooked, Barrie or Barbara?
The US Constitution is the basis for laws in our nation. Any judge will verify that. The words, “God”, “Jesus”, “Bible” or “Christian” are not in the US Constitution.
Please;
Do a research on the signers of our Constitution, and find out for yourself just what each man stood for, then read about the price the signers paid for taking part.
Don’t know the names? Just a few: William Ellery,Francis Lewis,
William Floyd, John Hart of Trenton, New Jersey, and finally Abraham Clark paid the dearest price. Read about all of them and you will see that [all] of these men were God fearing, men who deeply wanted freedom from tyrannical domination. Read it all and see what each of these men stood for. Patrick Henry wrote in 1776 “it cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists, but by christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I truly believe it’s important that each of us know just what it was all about…
“You people”??
Our country needs self responsibility…not fairy tales.
I think this whole debate is moot. I believe that people have the right to give their opinion, but that’s just it- an opinion. Nothing you say or want is going to change the mind of the believers and forcing them to change is wrong. What people need to remember is there will always be something out there that will offend somebody. But there is a time to fight/argue and there is a time to just step aside. For me personally the saying can remain or it could be taken off. It doesn’t really matter. What really matters is will I have enough money to pay my bills. There are just way more important issues in society.
Do you need God on our money to strengthen your belief?
If so, I’d say your faith isn’t all that great.
No..it was not always on our money.
Maybe if you’d read history rather than fairy tales, you would know that.
Right Wing Theocratic Nation….
Does that shake your faith?
Maybe Jesus will change the stats..lol!
Before 1864, the motto was not on any US mint. Were the people faithless then?
Maybe you guys, Israel and Iran can have your Menage a Troi War on some other planet.
Do you need God taken off our money? If so then I’d say faith in science isn’t all that great