Do You Want “Under God” Removed From Our Pledge of Allegiance?
2009 January 8
Here’s how the Pledge of Allegiance was recited back in 1924…
I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.
-June 14, 1924
Here’s how it was rewritten in 1954 under the Eisenhower Administration, with “under God” added…
I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation UNDER GOD, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.
-June 14, 1954
Why was “under God” added? Was it because of the “godless commie” scare during the early days of the Cold War?
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I’d also rather it removed from currency, as well. It was added there in 1864. Good to know that the government shows favoritism, eh?
“Under God” is not only a discriminatory swipe at atheists, but at polytheistic religions as well…Paganism and Hinduism to name a couple off hand.
Forget discriminatory, the government isn’t allowed to support ANY religion. PS Hinduism is monotheistic with avatars of the one all-encompassing deity.
I once wrote a paper on this issue, and I wholeheartedly agree that it should be removed.
However, considering where you’ve decided to publish your poll, don’t you think the results will be a foregone conclusion?
Possibly so, but if this poll were posted on Fox News the results would be skewed also.
It is. As a pagan, I disagree with it, because we know what the name of the deity is, the basic religion that it is meant to represent.
Oh, it’s always skewed. There is bias in everything. I have no doubt.
yeah, go ahead and remove it so satan can take over. thats what you want anyway.
in this struggle of good and evil, oh there will be an end. satan will not win. God will prevail because he is Lord, and all knees shall bow before him. it is written.
The term “under God” is protecting the US from evil???
Are you the Church Lady?
Satan?? LOL!!!! Atheists don’t believe in Satan.
Is “under God” your lucky rabbit’s foot to ward off Satan??
By the way, Satan was your stupid God’s creation.
wow! your last comment… I thought you were an atheists. “by the way, Satan was.. blah blah blah..” why would you use that as a comeback if you really believed there was no God then why would you use that?? smart buddy. You’re probably the dumbest atheiests… lets face it there is no such thing as a wise athy…but ive atleast met some smart ones… Shuldn’t you have come up with something smarter to support you’re reason for non-believe with some science fact crap or logics… realistic spill whatever you people try to come up with to prove theres no God. Oh and lets take God out of the pledge? I hope it doesnt happen but it will. The BIBLE… (you know that book you guys dont believe in) says its gonna happen.. that and much more and when it does happen all the happy little athys will say that has nothing to do with it. Seriously though I really hope yall don’t have to find out that God is real the hard way. I mean i dont hate yall or nothing. You guys are using your free will to choose not to believe and yall dont even know the reason why you have that free will. ITs sad.
Actually, I don’t need scientific research to justify my disbelief in a god, leprechauns or Bigfoot.
Also, I did not choose Atheism:
I chose to act upon it.
I chose to not remain silenced any longer by the religious majority.
I chose not to follow the mindless to a life of fabled fears.
I chose to be as realistic as possible.
Your belief in a God is based on grapevine-styled stories. Other than that…you have nothing but faith. That’s sad.
You guys are using your free will to choose not to believe and yall dont even know the reason why you have that free will. ITs sad.
Neither do you!! You have faith in a belief that I do not. I respect that and I respect your belief. However faith does not make what you believe in fact, it means you believe in it, it does not make it an absolute truth. If it was an absolute truth then faith would not be required. Don’t feel bad for me either. I am a happy healthy person. Just because I don’t believe in god does not mean that I don’t live by a lot, if not all the principles that almost every major religion teaches. Charity, compassion, tolerance, integrity, honesty, fidelity. I just do them because I know it will lead to a happy life and healthy relationships, not because I think god wants me too and will punish me if I don’t
It is mythology also….like Zeus and Thor. It is written.
i’m indifferent. i haven’t said the pledge since elementary school.
I’d wager that most people haven’t unless someone sends them a text on their phone. Many are oblivious to history and facts anymore.
I don’t believe in a particular god, but to have it removed because of your beliefs is purely irrational. What difference does it make? It was the way we learned it, it’s fine.
I also believe the ‘Under God’ doesn’t refer to Jesus’s dad, God, but more the deity you believe in God, be it Kobe Bryant, a Lego man, Allah, or whoever.
I find sometimes, no matter what you do, when someone wants to be offended, they will be offended.
It’s fine because “it’s the way we learned it”????
I’ll bet some of southerners said this regarding slavery too.
“I don’t believe in a particular god, but to have it removed because of your beliefs is purely irrational.”
That is absurd. How is it irrational to have that removed? That is taught to you in public schools, a place that i supposed to be free from religion, and to state that our country is protected by god is irrational, That is taking other peoples beliefs and forcing them upon one who is just beginning to learn. If you want to hear about “God” then go to church, You shouldn’t have to hear it in school.
It was added to the pledge because of beliefs.
Removing the term “Under God” in the pledge of allegiance makes no sense at all to me. What is the argument? Do you think these words existence in the pledge will convince atheists to suddenly accept Jesus Christ? Do you think that by changing the words of the pledge you’ll actually change anyone’s minds, let alone religious views? Do you think that the US Constitution mentions anything about the separation of church and state? It doesn’t. It says nothing of the sort, the only place one could construe this idea is in the terms “freedom of religion”, which surely doesn’t mean “freedom from religion”. Organized religion is very popular in America and Christianity was undeniably one of the most important factors in the principles and values of our founding fathers. I am not a member of any religious camp, but I do not see the apparent threat of the two words “Under God”.
why does a site exist? To search out and destroy tradition. what makes believing in god so irrational? This is a hate site, you people are no better then the neo-nazi web sites or the black pride ones. Our great nation will fall because of people like you, who have nothing better to do but bitch and complain about nothing more then a few words in the Pledge of Allegaince? Get a fucking life. Or better yet find something to believe in.
@ cursade
And you’re just another theocrat.
“Mark, on January 8th, 2009 at 11:34 pm Said:
It’s fine because “it’s the way we learned it”????
I’ll bet some of southerners said this regarding slavery too.”"
Me being a person of mixed race, i know that the dream of me even existing or even being treated like a human being was only made possible by the abolishment of slavery.
it is ignorance like this …
“”I don’t believe in a particular god, but to have it removed because of your beliefs is purely irrational. What difference does it make? It was the way we learned it, it’s fine.”"
that cripples if not possibly destroying logical thinkers. people are supposed to think for themselves??? or does your mom still wipe for you too? The second bit of ignorance was saying “Under God” shouldn’t be removed because of someone’s personal beliefs?? Well “Under God” was added Under the duration of the Eisenhower Administration, And with a little bit of education you’ll find out that Eisenhower was a religious man. With a little further investigation you’ll find out his administration set this motion into action under his “personal” direction because he felt America had to have been blessed by the lord.
SO…….do you think it should have been added due to someone’s personal beliefs? I would wait for a reply but I’m afraid that would result further ignorance on your part…
Seriously Watch “Zeitgeist” and educate yourself and think for yourself even if mommy and daddy taught you the “jesus” story
i voted, but the poll results would be more accurate if it was posted on a website not called proudathiest
We once learned that the world was flat.
We once learned that witches should be burned.
We once believed that women were property.
Everything we’ve “always learned” is good, yes?
just in case you still need some clarification, here’s a biography of President Dwight D. Eisenhower
http://mormoninsights.blogspot.com/2008/09/mover-of-history-dwight-d-eisenhower.html
you cannot say the alterations made to the pledge of alliegence weren’t a personal move. Considering his background and upbringing as a child, it even states ” On June 14, 1954, Eisenhower signed a bill adding the words “under God” to the Pledge of Allegiance. He was not the creator of the idea, but he played a key supporting role.”
i don’t want to spoil the surprise so look at whose idea it origionally was and how the idea got passed
http://www.zimbio.com/Eisenhower+National+Historic+Site/articles/5/Under+God+added+Pledge+Allegiance
it was personal every bit of it
“I’ll bet some of southerners said this regarding slavery too.”
Yup, because flogging people and forcing them to do hard labor is the same as 2 very minor words in the Pledge of Allegiance that mean nothing to the people asked to say it in elementary school.
What next? Why not Santa Claus? The Easter Bunny? The Tooth Fairy? People find the lamest things to get worked up over yet we say nothing about a fat jolly man that breaks into our houses in the middle of the night to give gifts!
*sigh*
America was founded on the principal of thumbing its nose at blind obedience to authority, which is all religion is or ever was. Communists aren’t godless as you might imagine, any irrational idea can form the basis for a fascist state, the very inexplicable thing that creates the need for violent enforcement; god and communism are the exact same mistake.
America was founded on strong Christian values. but thanks to the founding fathers (Christians) we enjoy freedom like few other countries. It is so easy to start considering our blessings to be man-made or man-propagated, but in reality, values we hold most dear in America are whole-heartedly supported and encouraged by the Bible.. Do individual Christians and church as an institution make mistakes? Absolutely. But God, our loving and gracious creator, does not. Just look at our human bodies and all the mechanisms that need to function perfectly in order for us to be alive. How can we believe that this is merely a fluke? To say that we are a nation `under God`couldn`t be more appropriate. None of us would have taken a single breath without his existence.
Bullshit. Most countries in the EU enjoy the same or more freedoms.
Mark,
I’m sure people would take you more seriously if you weren’t insulting them, you twat.
‘By the way, Satan was your stupid God’s creation.’
Didn’t you just finish saying that ‘Under God’ was a discriminatory swipe at atheists before you turned around and insulted people who believe God/Satan are a reality? You’re an asshole.
I feel like the entire idea of removing ‘Under God’ from the pledge is useless. It’s not like atheists are being held back from spouting the pledge everyday because of those two words– I’m sure none of you would make an effort to be proud of the pledge even if those two words weren’t in it.
I said this because only a stupid God would create their own opponent…Satan.
The whole God story as told by Christians today is the most ridiculous thing anyone could ever dream up.
you really need to stop insulting people with the words “stupid GOD” If you would pull your head out of your ass long enough to realize that everyone has the freedom to believe in what they want! I really don’t care what you believe that’s your right. I do care that you are trying to crame your beliefs down my throat! If 2 little words insults you so much than you have the problem! Get a life and move on! Oh by the way I do have a question for you Since you don’t believe in GOD where did we come? the apes like in Darwins theory? Just curious.
This is an atheist blog. You came here to tell me…..
Did I knock on your door or hold a candlelight vigil or even build a church in your area?
sorry, please disregard the first `but`, which was meant to be an `and`.
it’s becuase the whole idea of santa clause and the easter bunny and so on has been unsterstood and admitted by People that they are just stories and not true, and did you notice all of those myths that you listed are all stories told to children?? who else would believe such stories?
PS do you honestly believe this???
“Yup, because flogging people and forcing them to do hard labor is the same as 2 very minor words…”
Abusing a whole race of people and belittling them and segregating them yeah that is totally equal to saying 2 words….. i can’t believe you even typed those words? People that think like this are honestly the cancer of our society…you can’t reason with it you can’t use logic against it. your only option is to remove it.
Paganism isn’t any better than Christianity.
Neither make any rational sense.
“We once learned that the world was flat.
We once learned that witches should be burned.
We once believed that women were property.
Everything we’ve “always learned” is good, yes?”
Yeah…because these moral issues and facts are the same as nitpicking what is said in a symbolic Pledge of Allegiance. Most of us did indeed recite the Pledge, does that mean most of us believe in God automatically? Obviously not.
Had it been something of a moral issue like ‘Under Dead Babies’ then yeah, something needs change, it’s symbolic people, SYMBOLIC! Stop making a fuss about nothing.
Oh I know, the handicap symbol, the stick figure in a wheel chair, why are there no female stick figures? Let’s boycott handicap parking. Damn the handicap parking system. Speaking of stick figures, restrooms have only Male symbols and Female symbols, I guess the she-males and transvestites got to march up to Capitol Hill!
Please. Things about this country need change. Health Care. Public Education. Public Education. Global Warming. Political scandals. Yet we choose to be petty about 2 words whose intentions may have been to bring people of all beliefs together for this country?
Did some more research, apparently the words ‘Under God’ were not added as a swipe at atheists, its intentions were to ‘According to Docherty, what has made the United States both unique and strong was her sense of being the nation that Lincoln described: a nation “under God.”‘
– http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance
Good thing we all got worked up about this.
One person’s cause may be another’s petty thought.
Do i think the words “under god” should be removed???.. NO… As I also don’t think we should have lost the words Merry Christmas to Happy Holidays. why is everyone so afraid of these words is it agent there religion to say them, or is it that they belive in there right to freedom of speech in the USA.
We don’t kick people out of the country just because they don’t say it. (If You Don’t Like It Don’t Say It) It wont kill us our you. No matter what religion you belive in you worship a god, or higher being.(same meaning)
If you don’t belive in god I am just going to say it the best way I know how and that the way a WW2 vet told me
THERES NO ATHEiST IN A FOXHOLE) Just think about what that meens.
mm i’m atheist but this just seems overly anal. honestly, is anyone actually “offended” by this?
@ Jason…
Perhaps it would bother you more if the pledge were constantly recited publicly.
Not only do I want it removed, but I also want Christians to acknowledge that it was in fact added and was never part of the original pledge.
Look at the TS. I can see it in your eyes… you long for him. Just open your eyes and all your troubles you can carry on.
Why even bother having a pledge of allegiance? The country did just fine without one until 1924. I can kind of understand it if someone is joining the military or taking American citizenship, other than that it just seems like anachronistic propaganda.
One cannot say “One Nation, Under God, Indivisible” and not be a hypocrite! Nothing divides people more than religion…or there would be only 1 church.
I encourage anyone who wants God removed from anything to READ the Holy Bible and go visit a local church!
Jess
@ JohnThomas..
So that we may be brainwashed? No, thanks!
In the Bible, I simply do not recall Christ going to the temple, do you?
“But God, our loving and gracious creator, does not. Just look at our human bodies and all the mechanisms that need to function perfectly in order for us to be alive. How can we believe that this is merely a fluke?”
I just read all the comments and did not see anyone refer to our existence as a ‘fluke’. For you to do so is belittling.
This topic is about the Pledge of Allegiance, not creationism.
Who in the hell cares if it’s in the pledge, or if it’s on currency. If it harms you that much, get over it! I’m open to people having their opinions and everything, but it’s two words!
Next will be “The Third Reich” in renaming the Christmas Tree to “Holiday Tree”.
Get over it.
Some people care. More would care if the recital of the pledge were more frequent.
To be honest, there are other battles I much rather have time and effort spent on than this one. I feel its fairly minor. It never really bothered me on the money and, as I child, I always just skipped the under god part of the pledge.
I agree it doesnt necessarily belong in those places but its a relatively minor thing. Id much rather remove ‘Federal Reserve Note’ from the money and have it actually backed with something.
http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/dispatch/fathers_quote2.htm
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_religion_were_the_Founding_Fathers
http://antiwarrepublicans.com/foundingfathers.aspx
http://www.britannica.com/blogs/2007/03/the-us-founding-fathers-their-religious-beliefs-cont/
do some reading, founding fathers christions, ya ok! and almost all of them were free masons also.
Considering the vile stuff, that is written in gods holy book (here’s a quick sum up: http://www.onyxbits.de/biblebookmark), it is a shame, that worshiping this deity is still socially acceptable and even encouraged.
I’ve read the Bible, and I find my interpretation of it touching upon the phrase that Ghandi said: “I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Or, a more deliciously blasphemous version, “Jesus is a lot like Elvis. He’s got some good [crap] if you sit down and listen to it, but some of his fans are [fudging] nuts.”
I find it easier for people to understand concepts like this if we reverse things. Instead of removing it, let’s have it changed to Shiva, Alah, or Zeus.
Fun fact… the tradition that you so lovingly practice, commonly known as the Christmas Tree, is condemned by the Bible. Here’s my reference:
I think it’s amusing that those who will so openly say that they’re for opinions… what that usually means is that they’re for opinions that do not differ from their own. Would you simply shut up and go away if someone told you to “get over it” if there was something you saw as unequal, unfair, and favored?
Simply, it never should have been allowed in the first place. The constitution requires the SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE.
I’d say that this poll is slightly non-scientific, as it’s being asked on an Atheist’s blog-site. If this poll was done on a supposedly ‘main-stream’ type of forum, we all know that at least 61% would be all for keeping the “Under God” in the pledge.
(For the record, I voted it removed. But I’m not an Atheist.)
i’m a Christian. and yes i am so unlike my Christ. i am imperfect. i may also be labeled a fudging nut.
but i am a Christina nonetheless. and a follower of my God still. however big a shit come at me. i follow Him still. however much of a crap my life may be at some point or another i know my God is with me still. i won’t ever be alone even at my gloomiest of days. not now. not ever.
No. i don’t want to take those two words, “Under God”, out of the pledge.
Mark, you are an asshole. even more so for being a proud atheist. even more still for bringing this up. you’re getting real old man. and you’re getting old real fast. i can be the worst of Jesus’ followers. but i am assured of Heaven
pity. you are not. yet still, i will pray for you. for now, you’ll sit as Mark-the-old-and-getting-even-older-asshole. i pray you come to know Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior soon.
danaofthebells. you are a sorry ugly fat good for nothing bitch. sigh. you could have been pretty. right now you’re just so shitty. go rub your face on Mark’s sorry old ass.
oh and dana, real Christians don’t share that belief in christmas trees or santaClaus. we don’t believe in anything the Bible doesn’t support. the Bible yes. God’s Word you know. our God. Our. not yours. at least not right now. so, stay away from reading our God’s words because you will only mostly interpret it. and hey, the book of Jeremiah isn’t for you anyway. not yet. if you really can’t keep your noses from our book, then go start the four gospels. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John. afterwards, go read the rest of the New Testament. Stay away from most of the Old Testament for the meantime. it ain’t for pinheads like you and Mark-the-old-and-getting-even-older-asshole. im really sorry for you bitch
again, Mark, i vote no
lotsalovin <3 God bless you all <3
corrections:
* but i am a Christian nonetheless
* you will only mostly misinterpret it
lotsalovin <3
I personally think it’s irrelevant and if the majority of this country wants it removed, so be it.
I am a Christian, but I do not believe in force feeding my beliefs on anyone else. If you ask me my thoughts with regards to religion and my faith, I will give them to you. I will tell you what the bible says about it, but it is up to you to make the decision, not me. You are responsible for your salvation, not me. It is very hard for many Christians to come to grips with this.
As far as these words or this pledge is concerned, they are words. In fact, Christ said himself with regards to dealing with the government and the like, to give to the Romans that which is the Romans. We are in this world, but we are not of this world. Just as danaofthebells pointed out many Christians so easily blast and berate people before they have even studied or know their own belief.
Removal from the pledge is understandable. I don’t want to have to pledge to another “god” prior to the beginning of school or at a baseball game, why would I expect anyone to have to do the same and pledge to my God? Now the money on the other hand, documents, etc. I don’t see the big deal, either way I’m buying my groceries with it or paying bills, etc.
I say we use more of our time to actually deal with issues that truly effect peoples lives such as war, famine, disease, crime, etc. Christians, Christ didn’t call us to judge people, he called us to love people, even our enemies. How quickly you forget.
I don’t say the pledge of alliegence, I think it is worse to pleadge allienge to a flag or nationalism, I will stick with God and I don’t think he sees borders. There is a lot more hope with him! People should learn to get along and love, that is what the Bible teaches. “Love your Brother as yourself!”
I don’t think we should do whatever the so called “pagans” or atheists think is right, because then there would be general anarchy and nobody would be safe anymore.
@anyone who thinks the founders based This is a false notion. Thomas jefferson actually wrote a ‘bible’ that removed most of the religious aspects from the teachings of jesus. Leaving us with a moral handbook sans christianity and its abrahamic roots. A few of the signataries were actually athiests. Do some research before blindly stating your falsehoods as fact.
@traditionalists
You say we need tradition. The pledge traditionally has said under god so why change it. Well because you’re wrong. The pledge was modified to fit a christian leader’s idealist view of the nation. Under god was never present before eisenhower.
The pledge makes the statement ‘indivisible’. However by modifying the pledge as they have they’ve paradoxified this latter statement ‘indivisible’. Under god having been injected into the pledge has created much division.
I see some argunents as to how minor this is. How much it doesn’t matter. But it does. It makes a false statement about our nation. We are not one nation under god, we are one nation. This obvious mistruth about our nation looks badly upon our state. This is quite important
Since it is altered, I would like it to be removed. If that was the original text, it would’t bother me so much. Its not just Atheists that are effected by this, but many people that are not of the Christian faith.
WHAT IS wRONG WITH YOU!? How do you think this makes Christians fell/ You are a disgrace to the world!!
I would just like to point out the name of this website…… PROUD ATHEISTS! Besides its a patriotic oath. It didnt need ot be truned into a public prayer also by adding those words. They are useless… at least in my opinion.
Simple reason it should be removed. Look at what it means, they replaced the word indivisible with ‘under god’.
Before the pledge told the world the people of the US stood united as a common group. Now it disenfranchises millions of Americans who do not believe in god or who believe in a different diety.
Think about what that means for an atheist child reciting the pledge in school. He is pledging allegiance to a nation that deliberately excludes him and his family.
It should be taken out. Its a relic of paranoid religious propaganda and misguided patriotism. Its also flat out false.
God sits on high and laughs at the foolish plans of man to dethrone Him. Though the nations rage, it will come to nothing in the end, but utter ruin for those who reject His love, as expressed in Jesus Christ.
I guess it’s unconstitutional, especially if it were added without referendum, maybe we could say something like
‘I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation UNDER GOD, WHATEVER YOU CALL THAT OR HOWEVER YOU VIEW IT, OR MAYBE DON’T BELIEVE IN IT AT ALL, indivisible,
with Liberty and Justice for all.’
The word ‘indivisible’ is the one which stands out for me: and a country can only be indivisible if all opinions count or it’s a totalitarian regime.
It’s an interesting discussion, but it’s inevitable given the strong political influence of the evangelism movement of a certain christian perspective that opinions become polarised. Once we believe there is only one way and it’s my way then it’s a short jump to ‘everyone else is wrong’. Which is a short jump to ‘what shall we do to make them do it my way?’
I began my blog with a native american quote:
“Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do your people differ so much about it? Why are you not all agreed, since you can all read the Book?”
~ Sogoyewapha “Red Jacket”
Seneca tribe circa 1750- 1830
I enjoy the cultural diversity of America and have not seen anything in any one religion here which informs people as to how to live well or be more or less ‘godly’ to have it imposed on everyone. Nor have I seen any evidence that imposing any religion ( or imposing no religion if you look at say former Russia, or China ) is helpful either.
People have individual spiritual needs and callings which they have to work out for themselves.
haha this makes no sense. why is it such a big deal? it seems like you just want attention. who cares if it was added? just because you dont believe in God doesn’t mean we have to waste money to print out an entire new currency when we the economy is so bad no one can buy milk or gas let alone pay higher taxes to fund this. and the pledge of allegiance- if its such a big deal for you to say two words then just keep silent during that time. no ones forcing you to say it. sorry it just seems like youre being a little selfish when we should be worrying about other things.
I don’t see any problem with the phrase “under God.” I’m curious as to why someone would think it important to remove it. Do you think it is harmful to the United States? Do you find that it creates an unfair advantage for people who believe in a god?
No. I don;t want the “Under God” removed from our National Anthem or our currency. What I’d like is for these frickin Atheists who believe in nothing to go away and stop meddling in our politics, our Christian Holidays like Christmas and our Christian groups like “The Boy Scouts.”
These people believe in nothing, as such they are Godless and lawless, meddlers of history and tradition. They wont be happy until they have turned the entire world into a cesspool like Los Angeles. The far-left opposite of the Taliban who won’t be satisfied until they have exterminated everyone who doesn’t belive in Jihadist rule.
@ Killburn Hall
Move to Iran and live among the other theocrats!
I agree with Stephanie that based on the location of the survey, you have already tilted the table in favor of the outcome you are looking for. Additionally, you taint the topic with the scant mention of communism. There are fair ways to conduct a survey and this is not in line with any guidelines I can think of. I happen to disagree with the removal from a faith perspective and voted “No”. However, in light of the liberal interpretation of separation of church and state–which is not a true Constitutional description, it should probably be removed. And religious holidays shold never be Federal holidays. And we could go on and on. Quite frankly, I don’t want other religions (including Atheism or Creationism) shoved down my throat either.
You like John Lennon’s song “Imagine?” You’re missing the whole point of it my friend. (I’m referring to your pic, top right of the page)
Imagine a world where everyone can get his/her own groove on, and as long as no one else gets hurt, don’t spend the energy being combative, divisive, and antagonistic…
What harm comes from these “words” in the pledge, and are they any more divisive than what one might read on your blog? So then, why chase the rabbit…get a glass of wine, and relax a little.
C’mon man, do something positive. You’ll be a happier, more pleasant individual for it…
I find it amusing sometimes to listen to atheist s who want to enforce a system of ethics on someone else who holds a different view. What exactly is it that you base your system on? Chance? Eternal matter? What is your absolute standard? Why is it that Christians are considered the bad guys (although there are a lot of bull crap hypocritical Christians), yet you’re wanting to impose your view on the rest of society. Talk about intolerant.
Also, being that I am a Bible student I woud have to correct the misinterpretation of Jeremiah 10:2-4 danaofthebells quoted. This passage is a comparison between the idols made by man and the God of the Bible. If you continue reading this passage verse 8 says, “They are both stupid and foolish; the instruction of idols is but wood.” This is in reference to people relying on hand made images to give them instruction in life.
Whether or not the name God is taken out of the pledge, it doesn’t matter. My total allegiance is not to this country. Many of our earliest leaders were not even Christian, but instead Deists. I am supposed to submit to the government, but my total allegiance is to Christ. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant. I just find it humorous that something can be offensive to you, yet not to me.
I’m a Christian and I’d like it removed. I have enough respect to understand that not everyone in the country prays to the same God, if any at all. Faith is a wonderful thing, but it’s also a very personal thing and I will not dictate my beliefs onto others. Also, it was my understanding that our forefathers separated church and state not just to protect the state from the church, but also to protect the church from the state.
The Bells of St. Mary: No ‘under God’ in Pledge of Allegiance
While I can’t say I am an atheist I must agree that “under God” should be struck from the Pledge. I think we owe it to ourselves and to the brave men who made this country. Whether you believe they were Christian or not doesn’t make much point when they made the decree that there should be a separation of church and state. Regardless how “neutral” a term like “God” can be it is breaking one of the very things that the country was founded on. In essence, “under God” is the government endorsing a particular belief system of faith, which in turn puts other faith based opinions in danger. All are free to have their religion of choice in this country and you may shove it down someone’s throat or keep your beliefs to yourself but the government, and I think this was the overall point of this blog post, was that the government had no right under its own mandate to select any religious connotation that all would have to pledge to.
Get over yourselves.
Is anyone legitimately offended by this?
Or is this just another opportune moment to ‘take a shot’ at God and Christians.
tzugidan, you are out in left field. Come in and join the reality based community. You are the one who fails to grasp the point of this thread. First, get your groove on is complete BS. And religion does great harm. Look around the world today. It is religion which is combative, divisive, and antagonistic. These words are Unconstitutional, and can’t even be compared to this blog in scope. Pointing out the insanity of religion and hammering it home at every opportunity IS doing something positive. Religion will die the horrible death it deserves only if this ethical goal is championed by those Freethinkers who value Truth, reason and logic over harmful superstition.
ah, the morons amongst us —-> cursade
OK dipshit, learn something. Traditiion? No, Xianity is bullshit, and harmful traditions need to be deposited on the dung heap of stupid ideas. You ask, “… what makes believing in god so irrational?” Are you kidding? It’s childish and fear-based Iron Age superstitious dogma for one thing. For another, you’re delusional if you believe in something despite all evidence to the contrary. This is not a “hate site”, rather it is a reality site. Neo-nazi? WTF? What a friggin’ retard. Our nation is less great due to this religionist nonsense, as is the world. To the contrary of what you stated, it is the continuing effect this religious mumbo-jumbo has on people which will cause our once great nation to fall. Regarding this thread, the “under god” bullshit is Unconstitutional. Familiarize yourself with it. It’s not just a few words, it’s importance is obviously lost on the likes of you. And Atheists are individuals by the way, and believe in many other things. Secular Humanism for one, whose ideals are far better than your invisible sky-pixie nonsense. Wow, no wonder our country is in so much trouble. Too many of you out there.
oh, I wrote an answer and it disappeared when I hit submit?!
The jist of it was that I don’t see much correlation between imposing religion ( or imposing no religion ) and people’s individual behaviour…some people can see around a topic, some can only see their own viewpoint.
It’s about respect really, for diversity, for someone else’s experiences and culture, and even tradition.
Should it be in the pledge? Probably not. Does it matter? Probably not….
i’d rather have that line to be removed for it’s completely bias towards atheists and polytheistic. Im still at school and when ppl like me (athiests) and polythestics as well recite this, all this line really means to us is bs.
but if the line “under god” will never be removed, it wont bother me as much ’cause i have better things to worry about lols.
other things*
I do admit the only colony to be formed Catholically was Massachusetts. As a strong Catholic, I do wish it to not be removed. As a realist, Catholic and other Christian religions can still have faith without it on our money, our Pledge, and other things. America would still be run by Native Americans unless Protestant religions formed, and flew to a safehaven. And yet, most of our presidents were Catholic. It’s really an open-ended matter. And really, why change things that have been set in stone for years? Ahh, the oddities and coplexities of the twenty-first century!
@ neoneopet..
You said that most of the presidents had been Catholic.
WRONG!
We have had only ONE Catholic president…John F. Kennedy.
Sorry, but a MSU degree(Making Shit Up) doesn’t work here, and it shows your actual lack of knowledge.
http://www.adherents.com/adh_presidents.html
Whoops, this is an atheist blog… better scurry away before I sin…. sigh
“And really, why change things that have been set in stone for years?”
Exactly- get rid of it and return to the way things were for years. There was no need either to put a reference to god in the pledge nor on the currency when both had existed perfectly well for years without it.
“Who in the hell cares if it’s in the pledge, or if it’s on currency. If it harms you that much, get over it!”
Similarly, if you don’t care, then presumably you have no objection to the removal of the offensive words.
@strongForTheWeak.weakByTheStrong
Indeed… so unlike your Christ. I’ve read your book, and several times through. You forget your own gospels. Is it not your Jesus that urges you to love those and forgive those who oppose you, not shout obscenities.
Peace, love, and the spread of your faith is what your book teaches you to do.
As far as doing what your Bible tells you to… I assume that you do not eat shrimp, wear clothes made out of two separate fibers, have sex before marriage, have sex during your menses (I’m assuming your female by your speech patterns), or plant crops next to one another. Do you perform the cleansing rituals? Do you refuse to borrow or loan money? Do you cut your hair? Have you ever, in your entire lifetime, cursed your mother or father? Have you put to death anyone that suggests that you worship a different deity? Do you kill others of a different religion? These are things the book tells you to do, albeit most of them in Deuteronomy or Leviticus. How are these up for interpretation, though? They seem pretty cut and dry. If you would like, I can even supply you with the chapter and verse numbers.
I hope you find the peace of your religion, because you certainly aren’t living it or spreading the peace of it. Zealotry, hatred, and rather unimaginative epithets.
On… a small addendum… Isn’t the widely held belief, and, in fact what is usually preached, that the Bible, supposedly God’s Word, is for everyone?
The words should be removed. The authors of our constitution were very clear in staing that government had no business either supporting or interfering with peoples beliefs or lack of beliefs. Religious references, even presumably subtle ones have no place in our pledge, on our currency or in the form of publicly sponsered prayer. This is one of the big problems in our country, and it’s grown immensely under Bush.
Why has this debate become so impolite and attacking? Surely we can all admit that everyone has the right to their own opinion. To the Christians writing here and insulting the other people writing…swearing at people…etc….it`s a shame that you think this is the right approach. Not only was free will a God given thing, Christ was the most loving, accepting man ever born. Sure, he maintained a strong stance against sin, but in this case, I`m sure he would never be reacting the way you are. I`m disappointed and embarrassed.
I don`t remember who mentioned it, but I have to agree that there are some much more important things that we could all agree on and put our efforts into. Eliminating famine. Helping the sick. Loving our neighbours and treating them like we would like to be treated. Protecting the abused.
Thanks, everyone, though, for sharing. It is an interesting debate.
How about removing the pledge of allegiance in its entirity. Why do you have to reaffirm daily your allegiance. That is like having to restate your vows every day because your wife doesn’t trust you.
On a side note, why pledge allegiance to government? The whole point of our declaration of independence was that the government is for the people, not the people for the government. In fact, it encourages people to create a new government if the old one is found ineffective or oppressive. I’m not saying we should do that by far, but when did we turn the tide so much that now our purpose as citizens is to protect the government?
@ Bob..
Thanks for speaking as a sensible person. Some religions are prohibited from reciting the flag. Jehovah’s Witnesses are one group I can think of off hand.
@danaofthebells
Hey Dana,
I definitely agree with several things you said. The Bible and God are about peace, love, forgiving your enemies, etc. And equally true, God’s word is for everyone.
However, some of the things you quoted from Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy are unfairly isolated from the whole scriptures. Jesus is very clear in the new testament that he came to fulfill the law (Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them…..”….) meaning that all of those rules and regulations (meant to show humans how desperately they fall short and how impossible it is for them to earn their salvation) are now covered over by his grace, which in turn motivates us to live our lives in such a way that honors him.
1 Thessalonians 5:8-10 9 “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep (alive or dead), we may live together with him.”
And because Christ did this incredibly amazing thing for us, Paul asks in Hebrews 2:3 (New International Version)
“3how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.”
So of course, everyone has the right to believe what he/she chooses to believe. But I wanted to clarify that this section you mentioned was taken out of the context of the Bible and Christianity as a whole. Do I now need to abstain from pork? No. Do I, as a Christian, need to love God with my whole heart and mind and love my neighbor as myself (Christ’s summary of the Ten Commandments)? Absolutely. In doing so, I show that I am thrilled to be a child of God.
I sounded very preachy just now. I’m sorry. That wasn’t at all my intent. I was only trying to express how, as a Christian, we view these rules. I’m sorry if I offended someone.
Whether we keep it in or not, it’s still true, at least positionally; that is, we are certainly not above God nor equal with Him. However, practically speaking, our nation in general does not honor Him as such, and thus leaving it in might be hypocritical.
I would just love to see the Pledge itself actually return….seems like we never say it anymore, and I’ve asked children in school, and very few of them even say it anymore.
I’ll worry about one phrase in it, when we actually start saying it again.
@Sonya
Well put. I hope you practice what you preach. If you have the actions to back up your words and convictions, then I admire you as a rare thing indeed. However, I doubt this is meant to become a discussion of the merits of religion, in general. If you’d like to continue a discussion such as this, feel free to come to my blog or email me through it by adding a random comment starting it. I’d be more than willing to start up a true discourse.
I hope that, eventually, this sort of thing will become trivial. However, as humans, we are doomed, it seems, to fracture into groups bent on destroying one another. The day we stop fighting is the day we stop living, the day we have no differences.
I consider myself religious, but I think it’s a gross misrepresentation of our country and of my religion to have the phrase “Under God” (or any phrase similar) as part of our pledge and our currency.
Our country did not feel the need to include such phrases when we were first united, and I see no need to include them now. People are free to believe whatever they like, and I can see how the phrase might be offensive.
Also, frankly, how can we have such a phrase when we clearly don’t honor it? There’s nothing moral about our politics, now, is there? All the phrase does is create unnecessary tension.
@ strongForTheWeak.weakByTheStrong
There is no reason for your harsh words. Do you think Christ would react that way? Yes, we are imperfect, unlike our Lord, but I cannot see how hard it is to treat someone’s opinions with respect, as Jesus did. Can you not imagine the pain you caused Christ with harsh, unforgiving nature?
i want the pledge as a whole removed. its a direct insult to my religion. asking me to pledge my allegiance to an inanimate object instead of God? ridiculous.
TO CJ…
call me ignorant? Say mommy and daddy should let me think on my own? My parents are both highly religious and if your mommy and daddy weren’t so busy neglecting your ignorant self, you probably would have learned to read and discovered I am a believer in NO GOD! Does that make me an atheist? Maybe so, but if that puts me in the same class as some of the people here griping about 2 silly words that some group of people decided were offensive, then hell NO!
All your talk about reading and what not, yet I posted links that you couldn’t even follow! True Eisenhower signed it into bill, and True he may have been a religious man with a religious upbringing, but if you had read the links or done some research yourself, the people who initiated the modification sought to unify the country in the same sense Lincoln did in his Gettysburg Address.
And how the hell do the words ‘Under God’ segregate and belittle people of a whole race and belief? And you say it’s the same as flogging people? HOW DARE YOU?! If you find it offensive and belittling, it’s because you are no damn self esteem of your own! There is no direct attack on any race/religion/creed/gender in those 2 words. Any offense at all is self perceived.
Your stupid argument about those fictional characters. Tell me one thing, who in the world was ever harmed by these false characters? Yeah, true, maybe some Jewish kids felt left out during the holidays but hell, the world isn’t included in many holidays either! So what now? Nix the 4th of July because our day of independence segregates our neighboring countries who don’t get to celebrate with us?
I’m not one to reason with? It appears you are as all I have said is who cares. It’s not hurting the children who are ASKED to recite it — no one is forced to recite it. I don’t even remember the last time I was asked to recite it, hell, you probably don’t remember the last time you were asked to recite it. Hell, it isn’t hurting anyone here either, or do you lose sleep at night over it? If so, you are in way more help than the world can offer you.
If you are foolish enough to believe having it in the pledge isn’t hurting anyone it is because you happen to be in the majority that taunts the minority and can’t see anything wrong with doing so. While no one is required to say it, not saying it singles out anyone who doesn’t say it, and that is not without consequences. The government which is supposed to be separated from the church is endorsing its own belief in a god with this message and passing along a very well understood that those that don’t believe or believe differently are anti government. That last statement though is the biggest laugh since the biggest anti government factions are religious in nature and hold pro god anti guv’ment rallies at the same time.
If you believe the government should be reflective of the majority, fine. The majority of christians in this country are catholic. Let’s make that the effective tradition the government follows. I think you should prepared to go and confess your sins to the IRS every thursday.
For all of you who say the government doesn’t have to be devoid of religion let us then expand it then. All the coins and the pledge should reflect all the gods people believe in. Let’s perhaps start with Molech and toss a randomly failing student into the schools furnace after the pledge.
Stupid idiots think religion doesn’t hurt anyone.
Sonya, you asked, “Why has this debate become so impolite and attacking?” The answer is because your statements and beliefs are offensive, delusional and harmful. What you deem impolite and attacking is just the truth and you are simply not used to heraring it about your whacko beliefs.
And no, everyone is not entitled to their beliefs without challenge when those beliefs are harmmful, bigoted, and prejudicial.
Sonya, stop your preaching and quoting of your sick book of babble verses. Most Freethinkers here recognize them as complete nonsense.
That horrific boom is about hatred, bigotry, homophobia, misogyny, murder, killing, infanticide, lies and every other wicked thing mankind has every come up with throughout history. Your sky-pixie’s invente3d words will eventually go away as mankind becomes more and more evolved.
Oh, and your christ is a myth.
Finally, although “everyone has the right to believe what he/she chooses to believe”, you will continue to be mocked and ridiculed for your childish and harmful beliefs. Also, do you think that people who believe in slavery, child molestation and genocide should be respected and their beliefs accepted? No, because some beliefs do not deserve respect, and decent people should do everything in their power to help eradicate those beliefs. Religion is one such belief.
You are not a child of god, just childish in your beliefs.
jpeaslee, you said, “I cannot see how hard it is to treat someone’s opinions with respect” If you can’t understand why some beliefs do not deserve respect, then you are one clueless and dangerous person.
L K, yes, you appear very ignorant. And yes, if you are without a deity belief, then you are an Atheist. It has nothing to do with others, it is your choice no matter what anyone else in this or any other forum believes.
But related to this thread, those two words are extremely harmful, Unconstitutional and enable the horrific bible bangers.
The inserting of these Unconstitutional words was not because people wnated to uhnify the country. That’s just stupid. It was in response to the Red Scare.
If you don’t understand the very basic concept of these words segregating people then you are a bigger ignoramus than original determined. It has nothing to do with self-esteem, it has to do with exclusion. And the greater concept IS worse than flogging, since it enables the worst in humanity.
The superstitious fictional religious characters are part of the most harmful thing humanity has ever created or imposed upon others. If you don’t know this, you are both ignorant and naive.
Yes, it absolutely harms anyone who is part of its recitation. Although not forced, try telling a child to stand off and not be part of the trappedc children who do recite it. Also, it is tacit approval of the concept of an invisible sky pixie. Delusional thinking. And many, many events and political forums DO recite the false Pledge.
wow, there are some strange cotributors to a discussion- why would you be rude or obscene in teh name of your religion?!
Anyway y’all inspired a bit of writing for me yesterday
http://ingoodfaith.wordpress.com/2009/01/09/in-what-we-trust/
’some beliefs do not deserve respect, and decent people should do everything in their power to help eradicate those beliefs. Religion is one such belief.’
Isn’t prohibiting religion just the same as enforcing it?
@ ipu4me
I’ve got to say you proved my point. You’ve rudely insulted several people on this website, as if somehow you have the one and only truth and anyone who doesn’t agree with YOU is wrong. Do you really believe it’s childish for me to believe that people can discuss something maturely, despite differences in belief? I would have to say the opposite. I would be careful about sounding so defensive….one might wonder whether you can handle hearing an opinion different from your own. Fine…you believe my Christ is a myth. But I have every right to believe that evolution is a myth, albeit more modern. You called yourself a free thinker….but it sounded pretty close-minded to me.
I stand by my statement that everyone has the right to their opinion…are you going to brainwash anyone who doesn’t agree with your view of the world? I never said everyone has the right to ACT OUT their beliefs…that’s an entirely different story. I would be the first to condemn slavery and child molestation. But please, tell me, how my beliefs hurt you. I believe in love, kindness and respect.
@ Sonya Nyffenegger
Evolution is not an atheistic doctrine, so your disbelief will only lead to your loss.
I find it strange that many Christians do not believe in the science of evolution, clinging to a 6 day creation but yet will rely on science to heal their bodies like heart surgery, mastectomies and such.
@ Mark
I never said it was an atheistic one….I merely said it is something that I don’t necessarily believe in (macro, not micro). I do absolutely believe in science (although, many scientist would agree that evolution is far from being scientific…there are a whole lots of gaps in the theory. But sure, maybe God did use evolution to create the world…who knows? It doesn’t affect the foundations of what I believe.
For sure I rely on science…it’s God-given. He’s the one that created it.
If science is “God given”, then so is famine and disease.
@Sonya Nyfenegger
And how old is earth? 5000 years? to god wouldn’t this be but 5 days?
Consulting 2, Petere 3:8;
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
or Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
This would be a considerate time jump as creation itself would have taken 7000 years.
However my conjecture is that even this 1000 years is simply an arbitrary number one would use similar to saying of something heavy, regardless of its weight, “This weighs 1000 pounds” which could be said of anything of any weight, regardless if it is heavier or lighter than 1000 pounds.
The problem is with the time of creation is that it refers to days, which did not exist previous to the creation of the “light” [sun] which he then was said to have separated into what he called night and day, that which is in a full cycle considered a day. What’s interesting here is that while it is stated it took 7 days (in god’s time) before the light any amount of passage was still part of the first day, since the time delineation was based upon the sun which did not exist. Thus one would suppose that previous to the light things could have existed for billions of year [human] before this light was created and god would still have referred to this as the first day since the time delineation has yet to exist. Of course this is unrelated to evolution except that it creates a slight issue for the young earth idealists, not so much that saying the earth is younger than billions of years, but rather that time itself is not a static notion.
Also one could show that time itself is variable. what is and isn’t one second differs for different observers. The proximity of gravitation “slows” time (to external observers), thus if god is in fact a spiritual entity which is not effected by mass (as he has no proximity to such) time would indeed go by faster for him. We also move, around the sun, around the spiral of the galaxy, the galaxy is moving through space at an unknown rate. If god is “stationary” one could also surmise that mass increases for us (from god’s view) as we speed around the universe, and thus are effected (from his point of view) by more time variant gravitation. To him, a billion years passed to us could easily be observed as but second to him(by this hodgepodge of physics that is for a moment considering an out of sync spiritual entity).
This could give plenty of time for evolution with proven science, when sing biblical chronology. Why evolution is such a big ordeal to some christians is beyond me, The bible is the account of God from the human perspective, thus it relates for the most part only to that which is related to humans. Why this book would be assumed to even need to contain anything related to the prehuman environment is beyond me. one could also assert that by light, god means that he provided the spark of sentience man needed to observe such a thing. Hyperbole shouldn’t be ruled out either. Much of the bible is without a doubt metaphorical.
I mean we could argue the accuracy of the bible to the physical world all day, such as in Genesis;
and God made the firmament and separated the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament. And it was so.
Firmament is the translation from hebrew ‘raqia’ This word means quite simply “limitless expanse” the the infinite universe above the earth’s surface. Yet what exactly does this mean when it says waters above an infinite arch of sky? Water cannot be beyond the infinite as no such thing can exist by virtue of infinite. So much hyperbole yet people love to take it literally.
Evolution has a wonderful scientific background, believing in it is not unchristian, it is only the literalists that hold on to this firm belief sans evidence. Thessalonians 5:21 states ‘Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.’ this to me states quite clearly that that one should question even the bible, I mean ’tis god’s word everything means every thing. Given that the bible is the word of god through the writings of man, one should know that God would know this and address this in conjunction with everything else of this world in Th 5:21, He knows the bible is not 100% accurate., Years of translations back and forth between dissimilar languages, multiple versions, who knows what the original word said, one can only hope that it is close to what he reads today.
If you’d like to see an amusing example of what I’m saying here try this, I translated Gen 1:24 through a computer translator 10 times through 10 different languages (none of which are anywhere near the difficulty of hebrew with its wide context)
Gen 1:24 And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.” And it was so.
Translated 10 times to and from english: And that God said, ” Leave to the product under the creatures cheers inside according to its types: Cattle and things of the skulking and the animal of the track in agreement with of her kinds.” Therefore and it was.
Sounds similar enough to understand the intent…but it’s not exactly the same, different meaning could be taken. Hebrew is worse. Many words in hebrew are simply not translatable, they do not have any meaning that is understood in english. We use words that sort of relate the intent, but not exactly. This in conjunction with bounding around between languages definitely leaves the suggestion in Thessalonians as a great idea of your god.
I digress to deep here. Back to the pledge. While I’m not bothered so much by the pledge’s inclusion of the terms ‘under god’ in so much as it doesn’t offend me, I do believe that it twists the actual intent of the pledge that the original held. This is a problem. It was not there in the original and thus should not be now, lest we mistake the context and leave the original intent awry. You take the bible literally, so why should this misrepresentation of the Pledge, be sound in your mind? it is a hypocrisy to allow such, even as a christian.
I think that God is important and it should stay in the Pledge of Allegiance because, some people don’t take it seriously otherwise. With “God” in it, they respect it more, because they are more loyal to God than our country, so if they swear to God, they are more likely to keep it. If you are atheist, you should just think we are being stupid or something and leave our faith alone.
@ danielle…
Keep your faith out of politics!
confused, your name is apt. You are a buffoon. Evolution is a fact. There is NO scientific debate about this. And only right-wing fundamentalist nutjobs who claim to be scientists (with a few exceptions) claim that Evolution is otherwise. Just because there are gaps in the facts does not mean you get to insert your -god-of-the-gaps crap. Your god used nothing, because it is an Iron Age superstition. Lies. Myth. Science is man made and has nothing to do with your invisible cloud being.
@ Mark
With all due respect, then you don’t understand the very premise of faith. If it truly is faith, then it drives and affects every aspect of your life. It assists you in making your decisions from everything from your finances, your politics, even down to your relationships.
Unfortunately, everyone who claims faith, doesn’t have faith, many just have religion…..and those are the ones who have unfortunately decided to come to your blog and argue and yell, and conduct themselves in ways that in no way reflect the God that we serve and live for.
But, with all due respect sir, if a man or woman has faith…..it cannot be compartmentalized, it drives every part of our lives, even our politics.
@ ctoddrobbins
your quote:
“even drives your politics”
You theocratic-minded right wingers are just as bad as the Muslims that many of you deem as dangerous.
then you do not understand the very premise of faith….my faith drives my decision making in everything I do…that’s what faith is.
Obviously your being an atheist isn’t compartmentalized? Your desire to not have a faith affects your politics…..how is that any different than my presence of faith affecting mine?
For one who is so apt to point out everyone’s contradictions when stating their belief, it’s sort of humorous that you would find yourself in one of your own making.
To be quite honest…and maybe I’m a weirdo, but the personal faith of a politician does effect my vote.
I am able to distinguish the difference between personal belief of that individual and their political stances.
Would I desire a political leader that is an atheist? Political stance is the of the utmost importance to me. But if that person wants and politically attempts a one belief system for a state or nation, I am against them.
Worship, pray, and preach in your homes, cars, churches, temples, mosques and tabernacles, but keep your religious in those private sectors.
ctoddrobbins, With all due respect, faith is easy to understand. It is believing in something you know isn’t true. if it were, you wouldn’t need faith. And the most frightening aspect of this is that faith and belief in your superstitious nonsense is the foundation of your life. A lie is the foundation of your life! Wow.
And please remember that an atheist is simply one without a eity belief. Ity has nothing to do with “compartmentalized”. It is not political and has no contradictions, beliefs or dogma.
And it is not a “desire to not have a faith”, rather it is logic, reason, truth and reality which demands evidence for your extraordinary claims. There is none, because your myths are pathetic.
Wake up.
you know, when all that racist stuff got passed around the internet about Obama being a muslim etc, I thought- if he was it shouldn’t matter, this is a free country, with separation of religion and state affairs.
But it’s the people who have let their religion corrupt this separation of church and state who would be most worried about it not being *their* religion most represented up there in government…
That’s just double-standards and hypocrisy.
In a democratic country where there are people of many faiths living side by side- surely the government might reasonably be expected to represent many personal faith positions.
Unless there were an imbalance of power?
Speaking as a Brit you are at liberty to completely ignore whatever I say, and I dare say that has already happened, but I seem to remember reading somewhere about the US of America that those referred to historically as, ‘the founding fathers’, said that religion and state should be kept separate. So currency, the legal system, the legislature, etc should not refer to religion in any way…
Seems a shame you could not return to that stance.
Mark,
It appears that you are really agnostic. You have failed to put forth the due diligence in study to prove that God does not exist. Rather throught the false enlightenment of your own limited understanding and opinions you choose to simple believe there is not God.
I respecfully ask that if you are going to make comments about God and what he does state the facts. God did not create Satan to be his enemy. God created Lucifer who was the leader of praise in heaven. It was Lucifers decision to rebel against God and try to take over Gods position. God’s response was to remove Lucifer from his promident position. Amazing how people would rather not believe in a higher power, and would exalt themselves the ultimate authority in their lives. May the God you don’t current believe in prosper you and bring you to a understanding of who he really is.
It appears that you are ignorant of me…and you have not produced one stitch of evidence to prove your belief in imaginary friends.
Man created God.
As per your 2nd paragraph…
God and Lucifer are NOT factual. They are fictional.
I think this blog is seriously hilarious. I think both parties are being judgemental. (I’m writing a book on this actually) Christians (some) see athiests as people who are living their lives completely wrong and I don’t believe in telling someone how to live their lives, but the athiests I’m seeing are provoking the issues. The athiests (some) are judging how christians live their lives too because they are “imposing” on your way of life. (by the way no one forced you to say the pledge with “under god”) You talk about taking it out to keep the peace but then you are just going to find another reason to protest what christians are doing when you should stay out of it if you don’t want to take part in it. (if you do, that’s another story)
I feel like you’re here not only to excerise your rights but to impose and ultimatley destroy other people’s faith and beliefs. (wether that’s with God or some other form of religion.) If you were being forced to bow doen to God I could understand but this is getting out of hand, or that’s how I feel anyway. No one can keep peace by using it to make someone feel bad about themselves.
@ cliftonhesparia
Sorry but you don’t need to capture the emails of readers here. Your email address is now deleted.